What do you believe regarding the sound of passive components?

[WhopperPlate]

Equivalent series inductance makes the impedance of a resistor plus ESL higher with frequency. The frequency where the inductive reactance equals the resistance is taken as the critical point of its filtering. The frequency were that happens is F = R / (2 * pi * L). I did a quick look for the self inductance of different types of resistors. Modern film types are passed over as in general under 2 nanoHenries of self inductance. Metal oxide runs to 2-200nH according to the chart I found. Carbon comp, by the way, has almost no self inductance, other than the distributed inductance of the lead wire itself.

If you have a 1K metal oxide resistor with 200nH of self inductance, the frequency where the inductive reactance exceeds the resistance is F = 1000 / (2 * 3.14 * 200nH) = 796 MHz. A 100k resistor hits its turnover at 796GHz.

Of course, the self capacitance enters the picture and prevents the total impedance from ever getting to that turnover. And the self inductance of the wire leads enters the picture. For the wire typically used in guitar amps, the self inductance is about 25nH per inch. That’s a rule of thumb; the exact self inductance is a function of the diameter, but it’s a useful approximation because of that “nH” value. A couple of inches of lead wire plus hookup wire gives a nil-inductance carbon comp resistor as much self inductance as a metal oxide. The bottom line there is that the self inductance of a film resistor is very much in the same rough size as the self inductance of the lead and hookup wires.

The Mega-Hertz and Giga-Hertz in the numbers means that it is highly doubtful that resistor inductance has an effect in audio circuitry.

Brains winning over braun . Nice.

You are right , running numbers with any familiar values does not yield results within the audio spectrum.

I don’t refuse that sub sonic and hyper sonic frequencies cant modulate the audio spectrum. At the very least they can big an amp down and ruin idealized performance if too much gets inside .

I have brought this up discussing this with you when it comes up in digital sample rate arguments as well, but I don’t have enough experience in that territory to speak about A vs B

this is all just theory for me , like bepone implied I am not a rich a man with time or access to what is necessary to make definite conclusions , and this is the closest I get to believing something might make a difference for a given reasoning, but I have no attachments to being right about this, just assumed plausibility as you say

This is the essence of what was going through my head when I read that certain brands of resistors give midrange or percussive effects to amplifiers. Resistors adding a tone color in the audio midrange simply does not make sense. Different materials? Sure. See “Carbon comp”.

This is where I don’t understand what’s so logically repugnant, because as already stated “brand” is just synonymous with recipe .

An old Allen Bradley doesn’t sound the same as a new modern production carbon composition. They aren’t made using the same exact materials . Mexican coca cola vs USA Coca Cola . Not the same. McDonalds Coca Cola vs canned cola . Not the same .

“Same” composition or not I have never heard two brands of resistors sound identical .

[R.G.]

RG; is any type of resistor prone to inductance from magnetic fields in a tube amp(coming from other components?

Yes. Anything that is conductive is affected by a changing external magnetic field; so all types of resistors, being conductors, can be affected by an external magnetic field. . Magnetic fields induce voltages when they cut through conductors. Resistors are conductors, so they have voltages across them if an external varying magnetic field cuts across them. So are lead wires, whether they are ferromagnetic or not.
The big question then gets down to details - how big and how fast does the external field change, how much are the particular materials inside the resistor ferromagnetic themselves, and so on. Then there is the question - for use in electronic devices, how big is the effect compared to the signal otherwise being passed in the resistor. Resistors working at 2.4GHz inside wifi boxes will have different susceptibilities than resistors in a car battery charger.

[R.G.]

You are right , running numbers with any familiar values does not yield results within the audio spectrum.

I don’t refuse that sub sonic and hyper sonic frequencies cant modulate the audio spectrum. At the very least they can big an amp down and ruin idealized performance if too much gets inside .

I have brought this up discussing this with you when it comes up in digital sample rate arguments as well, but I don’t have enough experience in that territory to speak about A vs B

this is all just theory for me , like bepone implied I am not a rich a man with time or access to what is necessary to make definite conclusions , and this is the closest I get to believing something might make a difference for a given reasoning, but I have no attachments to being right about this, just assumed plausibility as you say

I'm not rich either. I just had access to some very, very fancy equipment in my work laboratory before I retired. It was that equipment that let me figure out that vintage wah inductors do in fact sound different. A very sensitive set of HP spectrum analyzers pulled up the fact that a real, true old wah inductor had second harmonic distortion detectable, but the modern equivalent did not. The explanation seems to be that the old ferrites in the old inductors was cheap, and magnetically "hard" enough to take a residual magnetic offset. The modern ferrites are much improved, and had almost no remanence. So the old ferrites showed faint distortion under the conditions in a wah. I posted that at geofex.com back in 1999.

This is where I don’t understand what’s so logically repugnant, because as already stated “brand” is just synonymous with recipe .

An old Allen Bradley doesn’t sound the same as a new modern production carbon composition. They aren’t made using the same exact materials . Mexican coca cola vs USA Coca Cola . Not the same. McDonalds Coca Cola vs canned cola . Not the same .

“Same” composition or not I have never heard two brands of resistors sound identical .

To me, it fails a couple of logical tests.
First, "recipe". Yep, a resistor we buy is made by a resistor maker according to a specific process. But it's unlikely that a manufacturer (= brand) only uses one recipe. Every manufacturer makes several lines of resistors, and even within the brand/line of resistors, the recipe for a 1K may not be the recipe for a 10K or a 100K, even in the same line. The recipe for making a 100K film might need a thinner film to get a higher resistance; the composition of the film may need to be tweaked to get the film to stand up under more spiraling/cutting to tune the resistance in. The film may need a different mix of oxides and carriers at the high end of the resistance range than the low end to get the values to come out to specification. Brand is an indicator of a recipe as you're using it, but it is not definitive. That's within a specific line, such as, for instance, their 1/2W carbon film. The film is clearly a different mix for their metal films, and might even be different for the 1W and higher carbon film lines. So while brand might be an indicator, it's not specific, and the composition and side effects will probably vary even within a single line.

I was able to stay out of manufacturing engineering assignments at the site I worked in. Some of my friends were not so lucky and told absolutely hair raising stories of vendors sending in new batches of "exactly the same" parts on reorders. What really hurt my manufacturing friends was when a vendor introduced a new and "improved" manufacturing setup of their product and didn't tell you. Volume manufacturing is a specialty business, and resistor making is a huge volume business. What happens if a brand (=manufacturer/label) has more than one manufacturing site, and "improves" one site? Even the same recipe doesn't help with a new set of cooks and brand new pots and ingredients. Modern manufacturing is always on the move with newer and more efficient manufacturing processes and lines. Changing those processes and machines out changes what comes out the end of the manufacturing line even if the manufacturer is trying desperately to hold it the same. My manufacturing friends were stressed all the time and on call 24/7 to try and keep OUR manufactured goods up to spec even in the face of variations in the parts we got in.

Second failed test is the broad brush claim that brand=tone color. The fact that every resistor from a given brand(=manufacturer) is probably not made according to the same recipe, even within the same type/sub-line of resistors they make means that it's logically inconsistent to say that brand necessarily leads to a specific tone color. I'll go along with different types of resistors having different subtle effects (see "carbon comp") but I cannot see any possible way that JUST because a resistor was sold by a given manufacturer, it NECESSARILY means a certain tone color. One interesting point we ran into back at work was that a given vendor (=brand) would supply us stuff made under contract by other makers and under their brand.

So I'm fine with "I hear different tones from different resistors." That's plausible, but I would still want to go calculate the numbers, just as with the self inductance. "Brand = recipe" is a substantial oversimplification, and "brand = tone color" is a bigger one.

I welcome a rational discussion of any of this.

[WhopperPlate]

To me, it fails a couple of logical tests.
First, "recipe". Yep, a resistor we buy is made by a resistor maker according to a specific process. But it's unlikely that a manufacturer (= brand) only uses one recipe.

Yes

Every manufacturer makes several lines of resistors, and even within the brand/line of resistors, the recipe for a 1K may not be the recipe for a 10K or a 100K, even in the same line. The recipe for making a 100K film might need a thinner film to get a higher resistance; the composition of the film may need to be tweaked to get the film to stand up under more spiraling/cutting to tune the resistance in. The film may need a different mix of oxides and carriers at the high end of the resistance range than the low end to get the values to come out to specification.

Do the ingredients change ? Or just the quantities of ingredients ? Or probably both depending on brand and technology. Either way I find it easy to assume the bulk of the materials would remain the same within a line in a given production run

Brand is an indicator of a recipe as you're using it, but it is not definitive. That's within a specific line, such as, for instance, their 1/2W carbon film. The film is clearly a different mix for their metal films, and might even be different for the 1W and higher carbon film lines. So while brand might be an indicator, it's not specific, and the composition and side effects will probably vary even within a single line.

These are all tone chasing 101 lessons . 1/2 watt Koa Speer CF line are what bepone and I are referring to. Koa 2watts cf are entirely different sounding and obviously made differently. A 1 watt piher on 183 overdrive grid input has its own thing going on over a 1/2 watt. Koa metal film aren’t my bag of tea . All very different. 1 watt cf xicons feel far bolder than a 1/2 watt resistor , more sizzle and compression with the 1/2 w. That’s just talking the signal path , I can go on and on

I think the word brand has you really stuck on literal , but do you really think people as entrenched with tone chasing as us wouldn’t maybe already consider such possibilities ?

I was able to stay out of manufacturing engineering assignments at the site I worked in. Some of my friends were not so lucky and told absolutely hair raising stories of vendors sending in new batches of "exactly the same" parts on reorders. What really hurt my manufacturing friends was when a vendor introduced a new and "improved" manufacturing setup of their product and didn't tell you. Volume manufacturing is a specialty business, and resistor making is a huge volume business. What happens if a brand (=manufacturer/label) has more than one manufacturing site, and "improves" one site? Even the same recipe doesn't help with a new set of cooks and brand new pots and ingredients. Modern manufacturing is always on the move with newer and more efficient manufacturing processes and lines. Changing those processes and machines out changes what comes out the end of the manufacturing line even if the manufacturer is trying desperately to hold it the same. My manufacturing friends were stressed all the time and on call 24/7 to try and keep OUR manufactured goods up to spec even in the face of variations in the parts we got in.

And if they change it drastically enough and I go to buy more I will hear the difference . Been there done that countless times . Tubes, caps , resistors , transformers, ect ect ect .

So if a koa resistor recipe changes for the 1/2 watt cf line in my future order I will let you know i hear

Second failed test is the broad brush claim that brand=tone color. The fact that every resistor from a given brand(=manufacturer) is probably not made according to the same recipe, even within the same type/sub-line of resistors they make means that it's logically inconsistent to say that brand necessarily leads to a specific tone color. I'll go along with different types of resistors having different subtle effects (see "carbon comp") but I cannot see any possible way that JUST because a resistor was sold by a given manufacturer, it NECESSARILY means a certain tone color. One interesting point we ran into back at work was that a given vendor (=brand) would supply us stuff made under contract by other makers and under their brand.

Yeh, definitely not what we are saying

So I'm fine with "I hear different tones from different resistors." That's plausible, but I would still want to go calculate the numbers, just as with the self inductance. "Brand = recipe" is a substantial oversimplification, and "brand = tone color" is a bigger one.

I welcome a rational discussion of any of this.

Not sure about over simplification , the term recipe implies quantification of all parameters within, and brand becomes m an easy shorthand reference, and if I am not mistaken every point in time the koa resistors were discussed it was clearly stated that we were discussing the carbon film resistors , which are available in 1/2 watt for all common values necessary to populate the Marshall amplifiers that were being discussed . The iskra resistors being discussed are a given ; 1/2 watt carbon film used in Marshall (which did change physical size slightly as well over the years ) .There was never any assertion that “brand = tone color” without consideration of the fine detail and nuance mentioned.

I gotta say, this kinda feels like typical internet communication breakdown reading comprehension issues. Nitpicking and muddy waters .

[martin manning]

Let me summarize:

Some People: There are audible differences among resistors that have the same resistance.
Other people: There is no electrical property difference that could explain an audible effect.
Some People: There must be some unidentified property that produces an audible effect.
Other People: Blind tests have shown that psycho-acoustic effects can create differences that aren't there.
Some People: My sense of hearing is detecting a real difference.
Other People: There is no measured data that accounts for it.
Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
.
.
.

[R.G.]

Good summary Martin.

[GAStan]

This has been, so far, a VERY educational thread. I am extremely grateful to those that are sharing their experience and expertise so freely.

Here is summary, as i understand this. If I'm mistaken please, by all means, correct me.

If i were to take the poll now i would answer YES across the board. Components of the same value, yet different brand/composition/age/etc... CAN sound different. One side of the discussion claims to hear it, the other side does not refute it but wants scientific proof. So far I haven't seen an outright claim by either these things do not change the tone.

Some issues with scientific proof are availability of adequate test equipment, expertise of individuals conducting the testing, and testing methods, among others.

On methodology I typically only see static results, that is the test consists of a single tone of x,xxxHz is injected with the results on a spectral display. Are listening tests conducted with a static, single tone? I believe those that hear it are listening to a dynamic sound, actual music or many different frequencies at once. My point is the differences may not be as obvious statically. What does a "warm" or "bright" sound look like spectrally? On an o'scope? On the other hand evaluating and interpreting dynamic results may not be feasible-yet. I don't know enough to say if it is or not.

I have also gleaned that exactly duplicating an old amp is nearly impossible due to the varying manufacturing processes through the years. One would need to know the date each component was manufactured as well as the "recipe" that was used, then know the start and end dates of that particular recipe. Finally they would need to obtain a component made during that period. This same process for each component. Not entirely impossible but definitely a serious challenge.

[WhopperPlate]

Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
Some people: The measurements are inadequate.
Other people: Human hearing is faulty.
.
.
.

As RG said , this whole thread was prompted essentially because of his contentions with an assumed understanding of the descriptions being used by bepone and I to describe a “koa” brand 1/2 watt cf resistor . We could have just gotten to the end real fast if complete reading comprehension took precedence . I must say to all those staying tuned to this channel that I tried my hardest over and over to circumnavigate such rambling back and forth, and I think that’s obvious if you have been reading since the original thread where those pesky 1/2 watt koa cf resistors were originally described .

Yes , even more boring when diluted down…standard fare internet tone disputes …

…so back to the question…when are we going to be productive and organize a massive ABX component shootout measurement massacre with all our ampgarage friends ? …since personal experience is more or less meaningless in the eyes of many, is there anything else anyone of us can offer beyond anecdotal evidence? …or are we just content living our lives debating semantics and perceptions endlessly ? Let’s all give up discussing because organization is just too much effort and costly ?

[martin manning]

...If i were to take the poll now...

I wondered too how many people might have changed their views after all the back and forth.

[bepone]

RG; is any type of resistor prone to inductance from magnetic fields in a tube amp(coming from other components?
Erwin

Very good question! and we know answer , everybody should .. in bunched amp with wires.. grid resistors are critical because they are acting like antennas, thats why CC is the best in grid (stopper) circuits, specially in high gm devices like output tubes

[bepone]

…so back to the question…when are we going to be productive and organize a massive ABX component shootout measurement massacre with all our ampgarage friends ? …

You can setup home recording system, amp mounted backwards, open chassis upper.. and changing 6 resistors, in anodes V1, V2, PI. volume and gain untouched, like mic position, looper on guitar input with light+hard strumming.

1. setup 1.. resistors those... result=.. recording 1
2. setup 2 ....resistors 2... result= .. recording 2
..........
.......
10. caps =.. result==..........recording 10


Then you can have easy recording and clear differences. And start to discuss with deaf people to prove something

But again, everybody need to do by them selves, why most folks wait few years some random forum guy need to spend his expensive time and made it for you?? It is better to just sit and wait the others, to infinity?

[martin manning]

I've seen that movie before. Some will say they hear a difference, others will say they don't.

[bepone]

I did (for my self) many times.. not for the others, in first line to understand the tricks, tone sculpting etc..which component brings what ..investigating, enjoying actually.. why i need to do something for the others.. and loosing time in discussion after.. it is counter productive

[Reeltarded]

Literally this is what phase flipping discovers. Everything will null except for what changed. You bounce that and you can see it with your eyes.

[martin manning]

Literally this is what phase flipping discovers. Everything will null except for what changed. You bounce that and you can see it with your eyes.

That is a possibility.