What do you believe regarding the sound of passive components?

[WhopperPlate]

why i need to do something for the others.. and loosing time in discussion after.. it is counter productive

I just imagine I am talking to myself learning how to do this. Pearls before swine ? Perhaps , looking back it was good I experienced so much naysaying , I had to cut my teeth like you ; nothing beats experience… but perhaps there are at least a few future dumbles who go onto make great amps because they read something inspiring from bepone !

I will add , there are innumerable builders and techs on this forum and others that have brought me huge amounts of knowledge on these occult subjects , and much of my youth I was guided essentially by their posts dropping these tidbits here and there, including Martin and RG whose work has always help ground electronic theory into something understandable, everyone is intrinsically part of my development . So the more I think about it the more I am thankful for guys like you sharing their experience . Cheers

[GAStan]

Literally this is what phase flipping discovers. Everything will null except for what changed. You bounce that and you can see it with your eyes.

This makes perfect sense to me. Thanks Reel!

[R.G.]

...If i were to take the poll now...

I wondered too how many people might have changed their views after all the back and forth.

I do know the answer to that one. I would be hugely surprised if anyone changed their views. Maybe a few newbies, maybe not.

After a person accepts a certain belief, it is difficult-approaching-impossible to get them to change it. The more evidence they see to the contrary, the harder they cling to their belief. That's why I inserted the link.

https://thisisindexed.com/2011/04/you-c ... st-belief/
Here's another good one:

Here's a cogent quote on the topic:

Mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information.
The concept was introduced by the psychologist Leon Festinger (1919-89) in the late 1950s. He and later researchers showed that, when confronted with challenging new information, most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information, or by convincing themselves that no conflict really exists.

Combine this with Dunning-Kruger, and you get a really, really strong bent toward staying with mythos in spite of new information.

This is not my first rodeo; I've been having this discussion with a series of magic-parts people since at least the 1990s. I had no expectation at any time in this thread that anyone would change their strongly held views. Logic just bounces off believers, who channel their efforts into attacking the new info and reinforcing their previous belief.

I keep it up primarily because I might reach someone early when they're open to change, and because the culture does change slowly over time. The "can't get tone from a stone" cadre have gone noticeably more silent over time. I used to get people attacking me based on my favoring solid state rectifiers, on the theory that any time music goes through silicon, it's degraded. But that's faded out quite a bit. I got a strong blast when i posted the "MOSFET Follies" stuff at geofex, but I see it's getting incorporated in stuff now, over a decade later.

Culture change is slow. But over time, Mother Nature and Her laws do win out.

[WhopperPlate]

[

After a person accepts a certain belief, it is difficult-approaching-impossible to get them to change it. The more evidence they see to the contrary, the harder they cling to their belief.

Who are we are talking about in this forum ? What contrary evidence to what claim are we discussing here? What was refused? All I see is more or less 10 pages+ arguing semantics of koa resistors and refusing anecdotal evidence as viable . I like reeltarded’s comments

I had no expectation at any time in this thread that anyone would change their strongly held views. Logic just bounces off believers, who channel their efforts into attacking the new info and reinforcing their previous belief.

What strongly held views did you try to change ? As far as I have read the people antagonizing you seem just adamant that they hear changes correlated with changing components . What’s the objective other than to make everyone doubt their ears and their sanity because of some cartoons and a few articles?

You have already admitted that this all started with your assumed definitions in the discussion of koa resistors. That’s all been heavily clarified by now and anyone can read back . I can say for myself that most of the disagreement you have had with me are predicated on these false understandings of what we were describing and the extent of detail described and/or implied. Beyond that really see why we are talking about beliefs and magical thinking again?

As Martin outlined, you don’t trust ears, and whatever is being measured hasn’t quantified what others hear. Let’s keep it at that and stop with the whole sowing seeds if doubt routine . The horse is still dead.

[R.G.]

Attack the questioner.

[martin manning]

I think you're having a Ground Hog Day here Charlie, but your last line about sums it up. You are convinced that differences in sound appear when different resistors of the same value are used. That's based on your experience, and it's your belief. The evidence that you might be wrong is 1) human hearing is known to be an imprecise instrument (previous blind tests have shown that to be the case), and 2) there is an absence of evidence supporting any audible difference being produced. You don't accept that previous blind test results apply to you (or MI amps), but to your credit you're open to be proven wrong, if someone were to test you personally. I believe R.G. is also open to being proven wrong; "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" as people in the sciences like to say.

[JD0x0]

Here is a pdf and link to various articles and tests regarding different dielectrics vs voltage stress on capacitors.

CC are known to have a higher voltage coefficient, and some people point to that and say they will add sweet-sounding second harmonic (thanks, RG), but IMO it's negligible. I tried pulsing some CC resistors with high voltage using my tube curve tracer, and they don't look any different from MF. I've also measured the electrical properties of a handful of coveted MF's with an LCR meter, and they were all essentially the same.

I'd love to see a distortion analysis on CC's vs MF's as plate load resistors with a good bit of voltage drop over them. I've frequently heard claims of the 'sweet 2nd order harmonics' but I've also heard from other sources that the distortion produced is purely odd order (mostly 3rd order). Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can't have a good 'rock' tone without odd order harmonics.

There must be an audible difference, because Aguilar chose to use Carbon Comp plate resistors on their current version of the DB751 bass amp. Literally every other resistor is metal film/oxide except the plate resistors in those amps. I can't imagine they'd pay more money for them, and deal with the extra noise and reliability issues of the CC's for no reason.

[TUBEDUDE]

More popcorn! Eleven pages and not slowing down. As divisive as the other internet puzzle, is this dress blue or gold.

[WhopperPlate]

I think you're having a Ground Hog Day here Charlie, but your last line about sums it up. You are convinced that differences in sound appear when different resistors of the same value are used. That's based on your experience, and it's your belief. The evidence that you might be wrong is 1) human hearing is known to be an imprecise instrument (previous blind tests have shown that to be the case), and 2) there is an absence of evidence supporting any audible difference being produced. You don't accept that previous blind test results apply to you (or MI amps), but to your credit you're open to be proven wrong, if someone were to test you personally. I believe R.G. is also open to being proven wrong; "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" as people in the sciences like to say.

Groundhog Day . Yes, and now you have joined the repeating yourself party . That is a more or less fair summary …except obviously I disagree on the whole belief definition…ground hog day again

Believe is accepting something as true . I accept I have experienced correlation between differences in sound that appear when different resistors of the same value are used. I am open to that being proven wrong, and I have not defined the aspects as to why this occurring… only guessed plausibility .. Haven’t heard anything yet that disproves the accumulated testimonies of experienced amp builders on this subject.

Yes , I won’t and can’t solely base my conclusions on another’s experienced opinion, whether or not that conclusion affirms my position or not. Prove me wrong by my own experience and I can definitively make conclusions. If someone says a resistor sounds one way I go ahead and try it myself . There is no blind faith.

Throwing away your own experience because of someone one else’s preceding failure to perceive in differing contexts makes no sense to myself . The referenced hifi listening tests open up a certain plausibility that skeptics will lean on heavily , but as mentioned plausibility isn’t certainty ...and hifi isn’t guitar

Attack the questioner.

I see a lot of unanswered questions in my post …

Do you feel attacked by my questions RG?

[martin manning]

Ok, awesome, at least we know the current state (I hope). What is needed now is more data, not more opinions and words.

[bepone]

why i need to do something for the others.. and loosing time in discussion after.. it is counter productive

I just imagine I am talking to myself learning how to do this. Pearls before swine ? Perhaps , looking back it was good I experienced so much naysaying , I had to cut my teeth like you ; nothing beats experience… but perhaps there are at least a few future dumbles who go onto make great amps because they read something inspiring from bepone !

I will add , there are innumerable builders and techs on this forum and others that have brought me huge amounts of knowledge on these occult subjects , and much of my youth I was guided essentially by their posts dropping these tidbits here and there, including Martin and RG whose work has always help ground electronic theory into something understandable, everyone is intrinsically part of my development . So the more I think about it the more I am thankful for guys like you sharing their experience . Cheers

friend, it si no problem to share experience, this is a sense of this forum, the problem is this "negation" group! looks to me too much philosophers which are rotationg in their own circles , from every post you can see lack of experience, only extracting some other people experience dry theory (with weak foundations)..

[bepone]

I would appreciate posts something like this,

Today i have changed 10 coupling capacitors because of ... and then i didnt like tone of this , then i returned that one.. sound is now like this..

Then on other amp i wasnt so hapy with this amp because of... then i have tried like this... bla bla.. sounds like some movements forward.

Speaking in this world nowadays that every components sounds the same.. like every picture on the wall is the same..just showing experience of this guy.. it is a big step backwards.. we have no time to pull this guy on tracks, because it is way behind of his evolution.


Ofc.. there is nonsense everywhere and too much attributes added for propaganda/price, dedicated to each thing on market for selling.. but im speaking on real things and we need to be focused here on that moments.

[TUBEDUDE]

I'm still not buying any overpriced red transformers. If they're the only xfmr company left I'll eat crow and go sandy state.

[martin manning]

I'm with you there. Good example of a marketing plan based on manufacturing cachet rather than a technically superior product. IMO, of course ;^)

[R.G.]

Throwing away your own experience because of someone one else’s preceding failure to perceive in differing contexts makes no sense to myself . The referenced hifi listening tests open up a certain plausibility that skeptics will lean on heavily , but as mentioned plausibility isn’t certainty ...and hifi isn’t guitar

You're using the logical fallacy of appeal from ignorance, in spite of the minor counter-illustration on your resistor claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
And the plausibility-isn't-certainty argument cuts both ways.
And your responses are right in line with the standard set of objections to objective-vs-subjective testing. They're right out of the play book.

Haven’t heard anything yet that disproves the accumulated testimonies of experienced amp builders on this subject.

Given your posts, I'm pretty sure you never will.

As to accumulated testimonies of experienced amp builders, well, that's by definition anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence can be a pointer to where to look, but has weaknesses as any kind of proof. Here's a quote on anecdotal evidence:

When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[2][3] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[4] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is typical requires statistical evidence.

Do you feel attacked by my questions RG?

Not at all. I was pointing out the play-book method in your comments. I also notice you like the "so what you're saying is" meme.