TUBEDUDE wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:40 pm
I'm still not buying any overpriced red transformers. If they're the only xfmr company left I'll eat crow and go sandy state.
Some of the better tonal adjustments I have personally made have involved removing those transformers …
R.G. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:55 pm
You're using the logical fallacy of appeal from ignorance, in spite of the minor counter-illustration on your resistor claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
And the plausibility-isn't-certainty argument cuts both ways.
And your responses are right in line with the standard set of objections to objective-vs-subjective testing. They're right out of the play book.
It is true we hear changes from components. Haven’t made any conclusions beyond simple correlations . I don’t understand how refusing these observations is necessary to be logical .
Here's a quote on anecdotal evidence:
Unnecessary dead horse kicking . We know your beliefs about anecdotal evidence.
Not at all. I was pointing out the play-book method in your comments. I also notice you like the "so what you're saying is" meme.
Soooo…what you are saying is: I am attacking you?….I am not ?… getting mixed messages
A side note for the perception-versus-measurments study.
Diana Deutsch played tone intervals to a series of listeners, and asked whether the tones went up in the scale or down. Simple yes? Rising or falling note sequence. When the tones got further apart, she ran into the tri-tone paradox, and eventually found that for bigger intervals different listeners heard the same interval steps going up or down.
http://dianadeutsch.ucsd.edu/pdf/Sci_Am ... _88_95.pdf
The point of this is that listeners can actually hear the same musical notes differently. One of the oddities in the paper was that British and California populations seemed to hear tri-tones exactly opposite from one another. But the Californians tended to be consistent; so did the British.
R.G. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:05 pm
A side note for the perception-versus-measurments study.
Diana Deutsch played tone intervals to a series of listeners, and asked whether the tones went up in the scale or down. Simple yes? Rising or falling note sequence. When the tones got further apart, she ran into the tri-tone paradox, and eventually found that for bigger intervals different listeners heard the same interval steps going up or down.
http://dianadeutsch.ucsd.edu/pdf/Sci_Am ... _88_95.pdf
The point of this is that listeners can actually hear the same musical notes differently. One of the oddities in the paper was that British and California populations seemed to hear tri-tones exactly opposite from one another. But the Californians tended to be consistent; so did the British.
Funny thing, perception.
Very interesting read. How does it apply here? The subjects only qualifying test was if they could distinguish which of two tones was higher/lower in pitch. The tones she selected were purposely selected to deceive the listener.
From what I understand most if not all members here are musically trained with varying levels of experience. How would her results look if the test were conducted on the members here?
The point here is that while this article is a nice distraction, it is still just a distraction much like this very post.
I'm afraid my tone sucks (pun intended ). I agree with Erwin, maybe time to lock this.
Some more amusing auditory illusions are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_illusion
The two clips on the page at the right under "Examples," Risset's rhythmic effect, and the Shepard-Risset Glisando, are pretty dramatic.
JD0x0 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:22 pm
This is one of my favorite pics to demonstrate measurable differences exist between different dielectrics. Now, the hard part is quantifying that, and translating to how it will sound in a guitar amp.
It's clear that one of these caps is superior if you're going for minimum THD, for something like HiFi but for guitar more distortion isn't necessarily inherently better. Some people like how monolithic ceramics sound in certain circuits, some people prefer micas or polys.
UntitledPolyvsceramic.png
Were we able to get a source on this? This seems like it's the closest to an evidence-based smoking gun.
I will say, R.G., that I totally agree that if there are no measurable differences, they're not there. I haven't seen a study yet doing a comparison of these components in the audio spectrum. Short of that, I'm pretty hesitant to take sides here given my experience gap, but I will say that it seems to make sense to me that, if there are measurable variations in ESR, inductance, etc. in the audio range, that there'd be an audible differences between components. I don't have a scope, but it seems like it'd be pretty easy to alligator clip in some different components to measure that. But it seems like this will be indefinitely at loggerheads when we're arguing empirical qualitative evidence like hearing differences vs an absence of quantitative evidence. I'd hazard a guess that clear quantitative evidence like a frequency response graph would be persuasive enough.
JD0x0 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:22 pm
This is one of my favorite pics to demonstrate measurable differences exist between different dielectrics. Now, the hard part is quantifying that, and translating to how it will sound in a guitar amp.
It's clear that one of these caps is superior if you're going for minimum THD, for something like HiFi but for guitar more distortion isn't necessarily inherently better. Some people like how monolithic ceramics sound in certain circuits, some people prefer micas or polys.
UntitledPolyvsceramic.png
Were we able to get a source on this? This seems like it's the closest to an evidence-based smoking gun.
I will say, R.G., that I totally agree that if there are no measurable differences, they're not there. I haven't seen a study yet doing a comparison of these components in the audio spectrum. Short of that, I'm pretty hesitant to take sides here given my experience gap, but I will say that it seems to make sense to me that, if there are measurable variations in ESR, inductance, etc. in the audio range, that there'd be an audible differences between components. I don't have a scope, but it seems like it'd be pretty easy to alligator clip in some different components to measure that. But it seems like this will be indefinitely at loggerheads when we're arguing empirical qualitative evidence like hearing differences vs an absence of quantitative evidence. I'd hazard a guess that clear quantitative evidence like a frequency response graph would be persuasive enough.
martin manning wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:48 am
No harm in having a lively discussion as long as participants can remain civil.
I agree. Keep it civil and gentlemanly. At the end of the day, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All you need to do is heat up your iron, put two capacitors and/or two resistors on a switch and A/B them for yourself in a given circuit. If you don't hear (and feel) a difference, well, there must not be any. But the other guy is not wrong for his position, his experience, and his observations.
I think a good analogy to this whole mess is from (the movie) Contact, when Matthew McConaughey's character asks Jodie Foster's character "Did you love your father?", to which she answers "Yes", and he replies "....prove it".
or 1980.. Picking caps by Walter Jung and Richard Marsh
people knew more 100 years ago.. today again we need lo learn basics..and again and again.......
Another good reference to add to the pile. Take note of the magnitudes of the differences shown in the charts, and the frequency scales, though. If a 1 or 2 ohm resistor were added in series with a cap, would that be noticed at audio frequencies? Do differences above 20 kHz even matter? What about the ability of MI speakers to reproduce those frequencies?
I don't think there is any big disagreement about different capacitor dielectrics producing distortion products, though, and the survey backs that up with 93% of respondents in agreement.
I haven't seen anything comparable for resistors yet. Information on resistor noise levels for different materials is easy to find, but I've seen nothing that suggests they produce different distortion products (CC second order harmonic notwithstanding). Most of the animated discussion is in this thread has been around the notion that different brands of resistors made from the same materials sound different, with only 25% of respondents believing that they do.
martin manning wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2024 3:00 pm
Another good reference to add to the pile. Take note of the magnitudes of the differences shown in the charts, and the frequency scales, though. If a 1 or 2 ohm resistor were added in series with a cap, would that be noticed at audio frequencies? Do differences above 20 kHz even matter? What about the ability of MI speakers to reproduce those frequencies?
I don't think there is any big disagreement about different capacitor dielectrics producing distortion products, though, and the survey backs that up with 93% of respondents in agreement.
I haven't seen anything comparable for resistors yet. Information on resistor noise levels for different materials is easy to find, but I've seen nothing that suggests they produce different distortion products (CC second order harmonic notwithstanding). Most of the animated discussion is in this thread has been around the notion that different brands of resistors made from the same materials sound different, with only 25% of respondents believing that they do.
We still got a diversion to resistors when taking about caps. I posted a link so did Bepone on capacitors in response to cdemike "smoking gun" question. For some it is still not clear there is evidence regarding the capacitors.
