Signal mute when wiring is tied with cable ties?

[psychepool]

I recently completed my own diesel VH4 build.
To prevent the wiring from shaking and causing a malfunction, adjacent wiring was tied together with cable ties.

I was using it well, but when I turned it on one day, there was no sound.
I looked around but couldn't find the problem, so I untied the cable ties and resoldering the wires.

Then it worked well, so I tied it again at the same location with a cable tie.
But there is no sound again.
I don't think it's a soldering problem, but I thought it might just be interfering, so I loosened the cable tie to try moving the wiring.
However, the sound starts again just by removing the cable tie without moving the wires.

The tied wires are two shield cables going to the channel 3 and 4 gain pots, two shield cables going to the channel 3 and 4 master volume pots, and one shield cable going to the channel 3 and 4 EQ components.
The two parts circled in red are the cable tie points that make no sound when tied and make a sound when untied.
When I remove those two cable ties, I heard a sound. I have not tested it with only one of the two tied.

signal_mute_01.jpg

signal_mute_02_1.jpg

These are the wire points on the circuit diagram.

signal_mute _03.jpg

Below that, several ground wires, relay regulator and DC wires, and depth inductor wires pass. They are not held together with cable ties.


Could the signal be canceled out due to the proximity of the gain pot line, EQ line, and master volume line of the same channel? I think it makes a little sense, but I can't think of any other reason.
Or do I accidentally hit a specific weak spot every time I tie it with a cable tie?
However, when I moved the wiring, whether I tied it with a cable tie or loosened the cable tie, there was no significant change.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts on the cause of the signal disappearing every time you tie the cable tie, which can be guessed in the current situation, please respond.

The cable tie itself is not in a state where it has been tightly tightened.
The tied wires are those related to channels 3 and 4, but all other channels are also muted.

[bepone]

Could the signal be canceled out due to the proximity of the gain pot line, EQ line, and master volume line of the same channel? I think it makes a little sense, but I can't think of any other reason.

cannot.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts on the cause of the signal disappearing every time you tie the cable tie, which can be guessed in the current situation, please respond.

you need a ocilloscope to find ot where is broken line, over the internet nobody can answer where is the break in your signal chain.. you have many points where it can be broken, malfunction in relays, cable shield touching the signal and grounding it etc..

[Stevem]

Simple continuity test that follows the signal flow Plath will tell you what's going on.

I can tell you from my own experience and in fact more then once,( like 3 times ) it would not be the first time that what looks like perfect new wire had a break in it, or even in terms of stranded core wire what was the end of two different wires got run thru the insulation process during manufacturing.

[johnnyreece]

Just chiming in to agree here. If it goes totally dead, you should be able to check each of these wires for continuity. If it's wired like the schematic indicates, my guess would be the wire feeding the tonestacks. To me, that seems like the one most likely to kill all sound.

Anyhow, kudos on fitting all that stuff in there. Looks like a tight build!

[R.G.]

Stevem and johnnyreece have already hit the basics.

As a pure and only tangentially relative side trip, I am a cable lacing fanatic. I love the look of neatly bundled and continuous-line laced cable work.
Granted, running every single wire parallel is not necessarily the best cable dress but it looks so cool.

Here's discussion from a car enthusiasts' place on it that contains some other links to how-tos.
https://www.garagejournal.com/the-lost- ... ing-cable/

[Reeltarded]

Is tension pulling an exposed resistor lead to ground?

Otherwise, could be tension on a pot leg, could be a tiny nick in the sheath of a signal wire.. easy to sort out by checking continuity while OFF.

I think it is the input leg of an iffy potentiometer. I like guessing.

[Stevem]

Yes, that’s another good possibility stated in the above post.

Use a clip lead jumper to go right to the output leg of a pot that might be suspicious.

[Reeltarded]

A tiny amount of deflection is all it takes, just the weight of a lead can produce the same symptom with a faulty pot.

[psychepool]

Could the signal be canceled out due to the proximity of the gain pot line, EQ line, and master volume line of the same channel? I think it makes a little sense, but I can't think of any other reason.

cannot.

you need a ocilloscope to find ot where is broken line, over the internet nobody can answer where is the break in your signal chain.. you have many points where it can be broken, malfunction in relays, cable shield touching the signal and grounding it etc..

Although I have no knowledge of electricity, I felt that it did not make sense for the signal to be muted for this reason. However, no other hypothesis came to mind.
I am not a professional and approach amp building as a light hobby, so I do not have professional equipment and I do not know how to use it. (The only equipment I have is a soldering iron and a multimeter.)

Anyway, thank you for letting me know that the signal is not canceled out due to the proximity of the lines I mentioned.
I will look for errors by assuming that the cause is a problem with the physical connection of components or parts. Thank you for answer.

Simple continuity test that follows the signal flow Plath will tell you what's going on.

I can tell you from my own experience and in fact more then once,( like 3 times ) it would not be the first time that what looks like perfect new wire had a break in it, or even in terms of stranded core wire what was the end of two different wires got run thru the insulation process during manufacturing.

There are quite a few cases where I felt despondent because it turned out to be a simple part defect problem or a soldering problem while debugging under the assumption of another cause.
Inference alone is not easy to solve the problem, and in the end, it is more often solved by testing one by one, but inference definitely reduces the amount of testing, so I asked the question.
I will test out several points. Thank you for your response.

Just chiming in to agree here. If it goes totally dead, you should be able to check each of these wires for continuity. If it's wired like the schematic indicates, my guess would be the wire feeding the tonestacks. To me, that seems like the one most likely to kill all sound.

Anyhow, kudos on fitting all that stuff in there. Looks like a tight build!

Does it mean that signal attenuation or cancellation may occur if the wire is connected adjacent or parallel to other wires (gain pot and MV pot wire of the same channel)?
It's a guess I've tried because it's hard to find other reasons, but honestly I can't believe it can happen.
What is suspicious is that even if the cable tie is released, the wires are adjacent to each other as if they were tied, but that did not cause signal mute.
I tested it about 3 times by tying and untying the cables, and when I tie the wires, it mutes with a 100% probability. It's so weird.

Debugging is always difficult for me because of such a tight build. In fact, even if I can simply test by changing the wires, the current situation makes it very difficult to try a simple test because the space is narrow. So in order to reduce the number of attempts as much as possible, I am first trying to guess the cause.
Except for the tone stack wire you mentioned, I will try to tie up the other wires and test them. Thank you for your good answer!

Stevem and johnnyreece have already hit the basics.

As a pure and only tangentially relative side trip, I am a cable lacing fanatic. I love the look of neatly bundled and continuous-line laced cable work.
Granted, running every single wire parallel is not necessarily the best cable dress but it looks so cool.

Here's discussion from a car enthusiasts' place on it that contains some other links to how-tos.
https://www.garagejournal.com/the-lost- ... ing-cable/

I admire that kind of beautiful wiring, but the reason why I want to keep the wires organized and tied up is basically not for visual pleasure, it's for physical stability.
Because of the extremely overcrowded build style, sometimes parts or wires are floating uneasily, and this is a must for me because it is much physically safe to tie the wires to other fixed parts.
In fact, I want to work considering the aesthetics, but it's a shame that it doesn't seem so visually beautiful if I arrange the wiring considering various things.
Thank you for the interesting link. The work on the link is almost like a piece of art. It's a good reference. To do that, I think we need to plan the layout in three dimensions by considering the space that the wiring will pass through before starting the build.

Is tension pulling an exposed resistor lead to ground?

Otherwise, could be tension on a pot leg, could be a tiny nick in the sheath of a signal wire.. easy to sort out by checking continuity while OFF.

I think it is the input leg of an iffy potentiometer. I like guessing.

In my experience too, the biggest reason why the signal is muted was the cases where the signal came into contact with the ground, so I also looked at this carefully.
However, as mentioned, if the cables are tied up, the signal doesn't return no matter how much you move or shake them.
On the other hand, if the cables are released, the signal will not be muted no matter how many times the cables are moved or shaken.
This phenomenon was so strange.
For some reason, I think it's a symptom that's happening for a very ridiculous reason. I'll take a look again. Thank you.

Yes, that’s another good possibility stated in the above post.

Use a clip lead jumper to go right to the output leg of a pot that might be suspicious.

I'll give it a try. Thank you!

A tiny amount of deflection is all it takes, just the weight of a lead can produce the same symptom with a faulty pot.

The reason for tying the cable is also to prevent it from breaking down during use after completion due to the reasons mentioned above. However, it seems that the problem you mentioned may occur during the tying process.
It would be nice if I could easily see it with my eyes, but for spatial reasons, all the pots are upside down and installed, and it is difficult to see the lug of the pot easily with my eyes. Anyway, I will take a good look.
Making it small doesn't lighten the weight or make it easier to move around, but I don't really understand myself doing this tight build every time. It's so uncomfortable.
I've made it in this size once a long time ago, and I think I've become obsessed or stubborn about continuity.

[Reeltarded]

Have you done a LIVE (amp on and in operate) tick test?

With the master moderated so you don't jump if it POPS start at the PI input with a safe tool and touch each point in the signal path backwards toward the input.

The first place you expect noise but detect nothing will tell you exactly what area the failure is in, then we can isolate it. The failure should be between the point you tap and the last point that made a noise.

[psychepool]

Have you done a LIVE (amp on and in operate) tick test?

With the master moderated so you don't jump if it POPS start at the PI input with a safe tool and touch each point in the signal path backwards toward the input.

The first place you expect noise but detect nothing will tell you exactly what area the failure is in, then we can isolate it. The failure should be between the point you tap and the last point that made a noise.

Does it mean to touch a metal stick or something with an insulated handle on the signal line and see if there's a reaction?
Seems like the simplest and surest way to go. I'll try.

[Reeltarded]

Does it mean to touch a metal stick or something with an insulated handle on the signal line and see if there's a reaction?
Seems like the simplest and surest way to go. I'll try.

Exactly! Make sure to mount the amp in a way that it can't move and keep the other hand in your pocket so you aren't accidentally going to grab at it if something should move.

Be that careful and you are good to go.