Healthcare

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dartanion
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Re: Healthcare

Post by dartanion »

mlp-mx6 wrote:
dartanion wrote:For profit healthcare is the major issue
How far do you take this concept? We all require food and clean water to be healthy, right? So why do we have to pay for it as individuals? How DARE those farmers and grocers and food distributors make a profit? How DARE those utilities that pump water to my house and treat the sewage operate in the black? (pun somewhat intended)
Context my friend!

Health Insurance companies like one thing, and that is collecting premiums. They don't want to provide you with healthcare if they don't have to, and do everything in their power NOT to pay for your treatment. Their profits are insane, and it's at your expense.

Now where did I say that for profit businesses are ALL bad? Nowhere. But, since you provided examples, I'll use them. Most farming in this country is now Factory Farming, and yes, they are profit motivated, and at your expense as well. I'm sure the CEOs at Con Agra, ADM, and Cargill love the profits they make at our expense. These companies suck on the gov't teet moreso than most and continue to get massive subsidies designed to help family farms, not large corporate owned farms. These are what many call "Free handouts" as these companies don't need the governments money, but since it's there for the taking, they take it. Corporate welfare as you will.

Utilities are a whole other nightmare. Water and sewer are primarily gov't provided services, unless you are in a very rural setting. Having lived almost off grid for 3 years (a few years ago), sewer was free as we had a septic system, but water was private and more than 200 times more expensive than any public water works supplied water that I had ever paid for in my life. So, gov't supplied utilities are quite nice in keeping costs down as they can utilize the economy of scale by providing to the masses, and not taking in huge profits. Private firms will try to maximize profit, governmental agencies work to provide the service, not provide profit to it's executives and shareholders.

Do you see the context now?

The last thing that any of us should be faced with is letting shareholders determine if your medical expenses will be covered under your insurance plan.
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Structo
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Structo »

I heard on the radio today that a Republican senator (Sorry I don't remember his name) is proposing that the senate be enrolled into the national health plan.

He stated that, let's see how fast this bill gets changed then.

Do you guys realize that they have a totally separate health plan for congress?
They also receive the salary they were paid once retired for life and also health benefits for life.
Must be nice to be them.......the privileged few that stand on the backs of tax payers.

Don't even get me started on all the riders and earmarks that are part of the over 2,000 page bill.....
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
mlp-mx6
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Re: Healthcare

Post by mlp-mx6 »

dartanion wrote:Do you see the context now?
I see two examples of government intervention.

One that works well (water) because it is a commodity and the delivery has one and only one quality measure. One that is about as stupid as it can be (farming & subsidies), because the government is trying to control a market and influence people's behavior.

Which has more in common with health care?
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Allynmey
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Allynmey »

Still seems like many here think this is about your health.... :roll:
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Ears
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Ears »

Thankfully, in my country it is still about health.
The first question we're asked if we turn up to hospital is "where does it hurt?" and not "are you insured?".
edit: BTW, unless things have changed recently without my notice, visitors to this country also receive free care should they be involved in an accident.
Courtesy the NZ taxpayer, and truly, no need to thank us, you are welcome.
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M Fowler
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Re: Healthcare

Post by M Fowler »

Well when I grew up on a farm the governement was paying the farmers to seal the grain bins on long contracts and put the land into crop reduction program (CRP).

Government is at it again sticking it to the people on some kind of dim witted political maneveur.
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Ears
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Ears »

M Fowler wrote:Well when I grew up on a farm the governement was paying the farmers to seal the grain bins on long contracts and put the land into crop reduction program (CRP).
Govt. possibly sick of paying agricultural subsidies?
There isn't any such thing as a free market in world agriculture, take it from someone who lives in a nation that survives on agricultural produce and that is constantly disadvantaged by the market distortions that are caused by subsidies and tariffs.

:wink:
mac0611
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Re: Healthcare

Post by mac0611 »

How about car insurance? That is mandatory in our country. Is that also the government imposing on us?

The more populated the country becomes, the more need there is for the government to provide legislation to prevent people or entities from encroaching on each other. It's just a fact of life.

Healthcare for profit has clearly strangled employers for a long time. The cost of doing business is directly tied to their fat profits. Just look at the stagnation of wages over the last 25 years. Employees can't get decent raises because their raise is in the form of escalating premiums that line the pockets of CEO's and shareholders. So they turn to credit cards to make ends meet. We all know where that got us.

I don't like to be regulated any more than the next guy. The difference is I don't allow propaganda from dubious sources to cloud my judgement and perception of where the real problem lies.

I read the health care bill comprehensively, paying close attention to allocations and how it was to be funded. It is clear to me that it will work for us concerning the contraction of the national debt, albeit it isn't perfect. But in a democracy what is? Moreover, there is no public option which I thought would have brought real competiton to drive down prices.

Kudos to our european friends for helping to clarify "socialism," a word that gets tossed freely about by those that only wish to reclaim or retain their "entitlement" to governing our country. It is refreshing to get a view from unclouded eyes and ears from the outside looking in.
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

there is a purposeful dysfunction in our government, by design.
It takes a lot to move anything. It takes a lot of voters.
And on the other side it takes a lot of money to buy your way in.
so we as the public are right to feel a disassociation with the process.
It prevents us liberal/progressive/humanist from getting too far out of line.
Because if the religious\republican\imperialist can't make a buck it WILL all fall apart.
Balance.....

In the end we all are victims of our cultural lifestyle.
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FYL
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Re: Healthcare

Post by FYL »

Why do wealthy people and world leaders come to the USA for treatment?
Because we have the best health care in the world.
Well, according to the World Health Organization France has the best health care system while the US of A is 37th, between Costa Rica and Slovenia...

"World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems

The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan.

The findings are published today, 21 June, in The World Health Report 2000 – Health systems: Improving performance*.

*Copies of the Report can be ordered from bookorders@who.ch.

The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.

WHO Director-General Dr Gro Harlem Brundtland says: "The main message from this report is that the health and well- being of people around the world depend critically on the performance of the health systems that serve them. Yet there is wide variation in performance, even among countries with similar levels of income and health expenditure. It is essential for decision- makers to understand the underlying reasons so that system performance, and hence the health of populations, can be improved."

Dr Christopher Murray, Director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. says: "Although significant progress has been achieved in past decades, virtually all countries are under- utilizing the resources that are available to them. This leads to large numbers of preventable deaths and disabilities; unnecessary suffering, injustice, inequality and denial of an individual's basic rights to health."

The impact of failures in health systems is most severe on the poor everywhere, who are driven deeper into poverty by lack of financial protection against ill- health, the report says.

"The poor are treated with less respect, given less choice of service providers and offered lower- quality amenities," says Dr Brundtland. "In trying to buy health from their own pockets, they pay and become poorer."

The World Health Report says the main failings of many health systems are:

Many health ministries focus on the public sector and often disregard the frequently much larger private sector health care.

In many countries, some if not most physicians work simultaneously for the public sector and in private practice. This means the public sector ends up subsidizing unofficial private practice.

Many governments fail to prevent a "black market" in health, where widespread corruption, bribery, "moonlighting" and other illegal practices flourish. The black markets, which themselves are caused by malfunctioning health systems, and low income of health workers, further undermine those systems.

Many health ministries fail to enforce regulations that they themselves have created or are supposed to implement in the public interest.

Dr Julio Frenk, Executive Director for Evidence and Information for Policy at WHO, says: "By providing a comparative guide to what works and what doesn't work, we can help countries to learn from each other and thereby improve the performance of their health systems."

Dr Philip Musgrove, editor-in-chief of the report, says: "The WHO study finds that it isn't just how much you invest in total, or where you put facilities geographically, that matters. It's the balance among inputs that counts – for example, you have to have the right number of nurses per doctor."

Most of the lowest placed countries are in sub-Saharan Africa where life expectancies are low. HIV and AIDS are major causes of ill-health. Because of the AIDS epidemic, healthy life expectancy for babies born in 2000 in many of these nations has dropped to 40 years or less.

One key recommendation from the report is for countries to extend health insurance to as large a percentage of the population as possible. WHO says that it is better to make "pre-payments" on health care as much as possible, whether in the form of insurance, taxes or social security.

While private health expenses in industrial countries now average only some 25 percent because of universal health coverage (except in the United States, where it is 56%), in India, families typically pay 80 percent of their health care costs as "out-of- pocket" expenses when they receive health care.

"It is especially beneficial to make sure that as large a percentage as possible of the poorest people in each country can get insurance," says Dr Frenk. "Insurance protects people against the catastrophic effects of poor health. What we are seeing is that in many countries, the poor pay a higher percentage of their income on health care than the rich."

"In many countries without a health insurance safety net, many families have to pay more than 100 percent of their income for health care when hit with sudden emergencies. In other words, illness forces them into debt."

In designing the framework for health system performance, WHO broke new methodological ground, employing a technique not previously used for health systems. It compares each country's system to what the experts estimate to be the upper limit of what can be done with the level of resources available in that country. It also measures what each country's system has accomplished in comparison with those of other countries.

WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

"We have created a new tool to help us measure performance," says Dr Murray. "As we develop it further and strengthen the raw data used for these measures in the years to come, we believe this will be an increasingly useful tool for governments in improving their own health systems."

Other findings in the annual WHO report include:

In Europe, health systems in Mediterranean countries such as France, Italy and Spain are rated higher than others in the continent. Norway is the highest Scandinavian nation, at 11th .

Colombia, Chile, Costa Rica and Cuba are rated highest among the Latin American nations – 22nd, 33rd, 36th and 39th in the world, respectively.
Singapore is ranked 6th , the only Asian country apart from Japan in the top 10 countries.

In the Pacific, Australia ranks 32 nd overall, while New Zealand is 41st .

In the Middle East and North Africa, many countries rank highly: Oman is in 8 th place overall, Saudi Arabia is ranked 26th , United Arab Emirates 27th and Morocco, 29th.

In 1970, Oman's health care system was not performing well. The child mortality rate was high. But major government investments have proved to be successful in improving system performance. "Oman's success shows that tremendous strides can be accomplished in a relatively short period of time," says Dr Murray.

Information in the WHO report also rates countries according to the different components of the performance index.

Responsiveness: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden. The reason these are all advanced industrial nations is that a number of the elements of responsiveness depend strongly on the availability of resources. In addition, many of these countries were the first to begin addressing the responsiveness of their health systems to people's needs.

Fairness of financial contribution: When WHO measured the fairness of financial contribution to health systems, countries lined up differently. The measurement is based on the fraction of a household's capacity to spend (income minus food expenditure) that goes on health care (including tax payments, social insurance, private insurance and out of pocket payments). Colombia was the top-rated country in this category, followed by Luxembourg, Belgium, Djibouti, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Japan and Finland.

Colombia achieved top rank because someone with a low income might pay the equivalent of one dollar per year for health care, while a high- income individual pays 7.6 dollars.

Countries judged to have the least fair financing of health systems include Sierra Leone, Myanmar, Brazil, China, Viet Nam, Nepal, Russian Federation, Peru and Cambodia.

Brazil, a middle-income nation, ranks low in this table because its people make high out-of-pocket payments for health care. This means a substantial number of households pay a large fraction of their income (after paying for food) on health care. The same explanation applies to the fairness of financing Peru's health system. The reason why the Russian Federation ranks low is most likely related to the impact of the economic crisis in the 1990s. This has severely reduced government spending on health and led to increased out-of-pocket payment.

In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55. Cuba is the highest among Latin American and Caribbean nations at 23-25.

The report indicates – clearly – the attributes of a good health system in relation to the elements of the performance measure, given below.

Overall Level of Health: A good health system, above all, contributes to good health. To assess overall population health and thus to judge how well the objective of good health is being achieved, WHO has chosen to use the measure of disability- adjusted life expectancy (DALE). This has the advantage of being directly comparable to life expectancy and is readily compared across populations. The report provides estimates for all countries of disability- adjusted life expectancy. DALE is estimated to equal or exceed 70 years in 24 countries, and 60 years in over half the Member States of WHO. At the other extreme are 32 countries where disability- adjusted life expectancy is estimated to be less than 40 years. Many of these are countries characterised by major epidemics of HIV/ AIDS, among other causes.

Distribution of Health in the Populations: It is not sufficient to protect or improve the average health of the population, if - at the same time - inequality worsens or remains high because the gain accrues disproportionately to those already enjoying better health. The health system also has the responsibility to try to reduce inequalities by prioritizing actions to improve the health of the worse-off, wherever these inequalities are caused by conditions amenable to intervention. The objective of good health is really twofold: the best attainable average level – goodness – and the smallest feasible differences among individuals and groups – fairness. A gain in either one of these, with no change in the other, constitutes an improvement.

Responsiveness: Responsiveness includes two major components. These are (a) respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to decide about their own health); and (b) client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider).

Distribution of Financing: There are good and bad ways to raise the resources for a health system, but they are more or less good primarily as they affect how fairly the financial burden is shared. Fair financing, as the name suggests, is only concerned with distribution. It is not related to the total resource bill, nor to how the funds are used. The objectives of the health system do not include any particular level of total spending, either absolutely or relative to income. This is because, at all levels of spending there are other possible uses for the resources devoted to health. The level of funding to allocate to the health system is a social choice – with no correct answer. Nonetheless, the report suggests that countries spending less than around 60 dollars per person per year on health find that their populations are unable to access health services from an adequately performing health system.

In order to reflect these attributes, health systems have to carry out certain functions. They build human resources through investment and training, they deliver services, they finance all these activities. They act as the overall stewards of the resources and powers entrusted to them. In focusing on these few universal functions of health systems, the report provides evidence to assist policy- makers as they make choices to improve health system performance.

The World Health Report 2000 consists of a message from the WHO's Director-General, an overview, six chapters and statistical annexes. The chapter headings are "Why do health systems matter?", "How well do health systems perform?", Health services: well chosen, well organized?", "What resources are needed?", "Who pays for health systems?", and "How is the public interest protected?"

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centr ... index.html

Full report: http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
mlp-mx6
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Re: Healthcare

Post by mlp-mx6 »

mac0611 wrote:How about car insurance? That is mandatory in our country. Is that also the government imposing on us?
Bogus comparison. You do not HAVE to own a car. Car insurance is a condition of executing a privilege. If I understand the bill correctly, every citizen will be FORCED to either buy health insurance or pay a fine. These are not the same at all.
mac0611 wrote:Healthcare for profit has clearly strangled employers for a long time.
I'd say the expectation of employer-provided benefits - which is a relatively new idea in the history of the world, and which is to some degree an abandonment of personal responsibility - is a significant driver there too. For that matter, the expectation that health "insurance" will cover every possible health-related expense is an even bigger driver here, IMHO. That is not "insurance" - it is a payment plan.
mac0611 wrote:Moreover, there is no public option which I thought would have brought real competition to drive down prices.
If you think "public option" and "competition" have anything to do with each other then you and I understand the concept of competition VERY differently.
mac0611 wrote:Employees can't get decent raises because their raise is in the form of escalating premiums that line the pockets of CEO's and shareholders. So they turn to credit cards to make ends meet. We all know where that got us.
This is a GROSS over-simplification. The economic malaise of excess debt is due to insurance companies? Are you kidding? Fiscal irresponsibility on the part of individuals is the CHOICE of those individuals. (Please note I am not talking about catastrophic expenses here. *THAT* would be why you would have insurance.)

("I *want* my health care AND my nice house AND my nice car AND my iPhone AND reservations for dinner."
"But you don't have the cash!"
"So what! I'll charge it.")

WAY more than that, the causes of the economic issues we're still working through are FAR more complicated than "people used their credit cards too much due to health care costs."
mac0611 wrote:The more populated the country becomes, the more need there is for the government to provide legislation to prevent people or entities from encroaching on each other. It's just a fact of life.
So how far does this go? Is China a communist country because it is so populous that it is the only feasible solution?

I am not trying to defend the way things have gone in health care/insurance. I believe reforms are needed. I believe that government is NOT the best solution, though. Please show me where governments have demonstrated the ability to do better than free markets.

I'd like to back up the conversation and find out if we agree on the definition of the word "insurance." As referenced above, what I see in the way health "insurance" is discussed and, say, homeowners or car insurance is discussed, I'd have to say they're completely different concepts. Either that, or you'll soon be able to buy car insurance the day AFTER you total your car and get full replacement. Your thoughts?
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mlp-mx6
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Re: Healthcare

Post by mlp-mx6 »

FYL wrote:
Why do wealthy people and world leaders come to the USA for treatment?
Because we have the best health care in the world.
Well, according to the World Health Organization France has the best health care system while the US of A is 37th, between Costa Rica and Slovenia...
Are you seriously suggesting you could go to Costa Rica and get equivalent care? Or folks from the US should move to France to get the best care in the world?

Extracted from Wikipedia on the French economy:
the government continues to play a significant role in the economy: government spending, at 53% of GDP in 2001, is the highest in the G-7.
Public debt 79.7% of GDP (2009 est.)


THIS is what we should aspire to?
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FYL
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Re: Healthcare

Post by FYL »

Are you seriously suggesting .../...
I'm just pointing out some *facts*.
(French) Public debt 79.7% of GDP (2009 est.)
US public debt as I type: $12,591,000,000,000
2009 86.1% of GDP, 2010 (est.) 98.1% of GDP

It seems that the frog eaters do much better, huh?
THIS is what we should aspire to?
The best health care system, less public debt, more disposable income and overall superior standards of living? Who wouldn't?
:mrgreen:
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FYL
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Re: Healthcare

Post by FYL »

Please show me where governments have demonstrated the ability to do better than free markets.
Public service does better *everywhere* and *everytime* when it comes to essential services and utilities.

Government is to public service what capitalism is to free enterprise (yes, Virginia, this isn't the same thing).
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Structo
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Re: Healthcare

Post by Structo »

I said Health Care not Health Care System.
I'm talking about the treatments and the quality of medicine and doctors.

Saudi kings and princes come here for treatment.

As well as other world leaders.

We have the best "Health Care" in the world.

But having the government take control of health insurance and how that insurance is paid for is a big mistake IMHO.

I'll say it again.
Look at the things the Feds already control and tell me if they will do a good job of health care and insurance.

Amtrak
Medicare
Medicaid
US Postal Service
Social Security

To name a few. Those are all losing money daily.

All this new bill is going to do is grow the government and the bureaucracies associated with it.
There will be something like 17 new administration offices created to manage all the new departments associated with the Health Care Plan.

I think this administration has totally dropped the ball.
Instead of focusing on the economy and jobs, this deluded administration chose to concentrate on something the majority of people didn't want.
They throw the billion dollar figures around like it is chump change.
Meanwhile, unemployment is at record numbers.
Lets release the rest of that TARP fund to create and help jobs.

I really feel like Obama is so worried about his legacy that he has lost focus of the big picture.
I saw on the news he was going to Iowa to try and convince that state the benefits of his new bill.
Hey Barack! You can stop campaigning, you got your bill!

Curious, I don't remember hearing about so many death threats to senators and administration officials before this.
People are pissed off and I really hope that come this November when many are up for reelection that they lose their jobs.
They obviously didn't listen to their constituents.

At least 37 states have filed suit against this bill by challenging the constitutional law of it.
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
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