mlp-mx6 wrote:And, while I would empathize with someone in one of those situations, the employer actually owes nothing there. A person's life is that person's responsibility, or it should be. That responsibility should not be handed off to anyone or anything else. However, our society has developed a LOT of unhealthy expectations... and addictions.
Yeah, great. "Owes nothing". Sometimes it's not a matter of "owing", it a matter of doing the right thing.
We had a company close their doors over here on Christmas eve, no warning and 120 employees out in the cold. Apparently the law in our state is that any company with over 100 employess must give their employees 60 days notice if they're closing a factory. The State's Attorney froze the company's assets, pending exactly what I don't know.
That's a bad scene all around. If it was my business I'd hate to watch my company do a Wile E. Coyote impersonation while I had no cash flow and no orders. 60 days notice with enough capital left to make it a couple of days? Then what happens to a small town economy when 120 people hit the job market all at once?
CaseyJones wrote:Funny you invoke embryonic Russian communism as a joke, in fact embryonic Russian communism WAS a joke. Mix collectivism, totalitarianism and genocide, label it as "communism" then have a good old laugh 70 years later when the system crumbles.
Not defending Russian communism or laughing at it. Am a bit confused how the commo countries mostly seem to degenerate into dictatorships. Perhaps it's inherent in the philosophy (I recall that there's something about social coersion for "the greater good" and that can't be good).
Since we're talking commo's (and it's my fault ) the only real live commie I know personally is my next door neighbour. Like many aussie ex-commo's he's also a practising catholic. He's the architypical nice old bloke (in his 70's) non-smoker non-drinker married to his childhood sweetheart.
In his day he was some sort of big time union leader for the waterside workers. Caused havoc with the wharves. Travelled to Russia back when it was the USSR for "training" (with the wife and kids). You couldn't meet a nicer guy - some of the stories he has are just mind boggling (well my mind boggles easily). One story he told was about a filipino crew he saved, they'd been setup to be murdered by pirates by the chinese ship owners because they'd won some sort of court case concerning their wages or conditions.
mlp-mx6 wrote:And, while I would empathize with someone in one of those situations, the employer actually owes nothing there. A person's life is that person's responsibility, or it should be. That responsibility should not be handed off to anyone or anything else. However, our society has developed a LOT of unhealthy expectations... and addictions.
Yeah, great. "Owes nothing". Sometimes it's not a matter of "owing", it a matter of doing the right thing.
Agree but sometimes that's not possible.
We had a company close their doors over here on Christmas eve, no warning and 120 employees out in the cold. Apparently the law in our state is that any company with over 100 employess must give their employees 60 days notice if they're closing a factory. The State's Attorney froze the company's assets, pending exactly what I don't know.
That's a bad scene all around. If it was my business I'd hate to watch my company do a Wile E. Coyote impersonation while I had no cash flow and no orders. 60 days notice with enough capital left to make it a couple of days? Then what happens to a small town economy when 120 people hit the job market all at once?
If the company continues to trade until it goes bankrupt (ie tries to continue despite being non-viable) you end up with a lockout like your example. If the company is viable and can plan a closure (60 days notice and all) it may simply be "offshoring". (To be fair there's also the "run for the hills and take the cash" strategy which is probably what the laws are trying to prevent)
So which is more harmfull? Trying to trade to the bitter end (things will get better! surely?) or calmly moving a viable operation and it's jobs offshore to make even more profit?
In the end the 120 folks are still out in the cold.
Last edited by nickt on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Structo wrote:These thread develop a mind of their own.
Well, mchauck seems to have left us and it's a shame to let a perfectly usable thread go to waste!
I'm just riffing, I'll show you my ideas if you show me yours.
nickt wrote:
CaseyJones wrote:Funny you invoke embryonic Russian communism as a joke, in fact embryonic Russian communism WAS a joke. Mix collectivism, totalitarianism and genocide, label it as "communism" then have a good old laugh 70 years later when the system crumbles.
Not defending Russian communism or laughing at it. Am a bit confused how the commo countries mostly seem to degenerate into dictatorships. Perhaps it's inherent in the philosophy (I recall that there's something about social coersion for "the greater good" and that can't be good).
I think it has something to do with human nature. It takes a certain kind of person to lead a revolution, perhaps the required personality traits exactly match those of a dictator.
nickt wrote:[Since we're talking commo's (and it's my fault ) the only real live commie I know personally is my next door neighbour. Like many aussie ex-commo's he's also a practising catholic. He's the architypical nice old bloke (in his 70's) non-smoker non-drinker married to his childhood sweetheart.
In his day he was some sort of big time union leader for the waterside workers. Caused havoc with the wharves. Travelled to Russia back when it was the USSR for "training" (with the wife and kids). You couldn't meet a nicer guy - some of the stories he has are just mind boggling (well my mind boggles easily). One story he told was about a filipino crew he saved, they'd been setup to be murdered by pirates by the chinese ship owners because they'd won some sort of court case concerning their wages or conditions.
Like I said I'm open to good ideas regardless of the source.
It's like I told my Siberian buddy when I presented him with a lavish gift... it takes capitalists to make communism work correctly!
Last edited by CaseyJones on Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
mlp-mx6 wrote:And, while I would empathize with someone in one of those situations, the employer actually owes nothing there. A person's life is that person's responsibility, or it should be. That responsibility should not be handed off to anyone or anything else. However, our society has developed a LOT of unhealthy expectations... and addictions.
Yeah, great. "Owes nothing". Sometimes it's not a matter of "owing", it a matter of doing the right thing.
I agree. And our points are not very closely related.
CaseyJones wrote:We had a company close their doors over here on Christmas eve, no warning and 120 employees out in the cold. Apparently the law in our state is that any company with over 100 employess must give their employees 60 days notice if they're closing a factory. The State's Attorney froze the company's assets, pending exactly what I don't know.
That's a bad scene all around. If it was my business I'd hate to watch my company do a Wile E. Coyote impersonation while I had no cash flow and no orders. 60 days notice with enough capital left to make it a couple of days? Then what happens to a small town economy when 120 people hit the job market all at once?
That does suck. I'm sorry that happened. I hope the former employees have some recourse if there was foul play involved.
Wife: How many amps do you need?
Me: Just one more...
We had a company close their doors over here on Christmas eve, no warning and 120 employees out in the cold. Apparently the law in our state is that any company with over 100 employess must give their employees 60 days notice if they're closing a factory. The State's Attorney froze the company's assets, pending exactly what I don't know.
That's a bad scene all around. If it was my business I'd hate to watch my company do a Wile E. Coyote impersonation while I had no cash flow and no orders. 60 days notice with enough capital left to make it a couple of days? Then what happens to a small town economy when 120 people hit the job market all at once?
If the company continues to trade until it goes bankrupt (ie tries to continue despite being non-viable) you end up with a lockout like your example. If the company is viable and can plan a closure (60 days notice and all) it may simply be "offshoring". (To be fair there's also the "run for the hills and take the cash" strategy which is probably what the laws are trying to prevent)
So which is more harmfull? Trying to trade to the bitter end (things will get better! surely?) or calmly moving a viable operation and it's jobs offshore to make even more profit?
In the end the 120 folks are still out in the cold.
This business didn't go offshore, their product isn't that portable. They traded until the bitter end and as I said there isn't a happy ending to this one.
It sounds like frickin' Dickens, right?!
mlp-mx6 wrote:That does suck. I'm sorry that happened. I hope the former employees have some recourse if there was foul play involved.
I don't see evidence of foul play but I'm not an insider in this situation. It looks like another business that chased a diminishing market until the market disappeared.
What can be done? Re-train 120 people for jobs in I.T.? It's pretty simple, when you shuffle labor from one sector of the economy to another the prevailing wage drops. Train more truck drivers and the prevailing wage for truck drivers drops. Train more machinists and that wage drops. Train more carpenters and that wage drops. It's supply and demand.
Hey, I know... they can all BUILD AMPS! On second thought...
) the only real live commie I know personally is my next door neighbour. Like many aussie ex-commo's he's also a practising catholic. He's the architypical nice old bloke (in his 70's) non-smoker non-drinker married to his childhood sweetheart.