HHO, GEET Pantone, Ram wings, Turbonators

[roberto]

I said a little lamba modify can lead to real better MPG, and a optimum package requires an optimum fuel delivery curve. There's no controversy in that.

Controversy is in saying they are BS, they say you can do it, then say again they are BS, then you have agreements, then BS.. ans so on. What game are you playing?

I'm interested in sharing some expertise, that's absolutely different.

[dartanion]

CJ,

Any NDAs, NCAs, or other legal binding agreements with your clients have no bearing on speaking about general concepts. I can talk all day and all night about what I do for my clients, I just can't give out proprietary information.

You made a very bold statement about you knowing how to make this all work, now we are just looking for a little confirmation. If you cannot back up your arguments with any real data, then don't get involved. Besides, what the hell is your point? Trying to tell everyone who are interested in what Roberto has posted that they're idiots and that the topics are all BS while not backing up your own view(s) only make you look the fool.

[leaveitalone84]

Hey guys, im a jerk and didn't read the whole thread but I have some experience with this. So I'll throw it in.

My father has tried the small brown gas generator with his Chevy Van 4.3L V6. It increased his MPG about 1-3MPG.

We came to this for a conclusion.

The science is right, if you try to make a generator with existing technology you cannot produce enough gas to run an engine. But since the internal combustion engine is so incredibly inefficient any optimization in the burn and moving detonation to top dead center will overcome the loss added by the booster.

It's easy to think of it like a super charger, it takes some energy to make the engine more efficient.

So yes this stuff does work, if done right. But most EFI will dump more fuel into the engine so you do need to fool the O2 sensor with a variable resistance.

But on the other hand we should be running engines how Roy Mcalister does. You can google him, but he hy-boosts his cars. Its very interesting. If you check out 'hydrogen engine fundamentals" on youtube he'll come up. He lives about 45 mins up the road from my aunt and he's the real deal.

His process allows for TDC detonation, exhaust so clean you can breath it , and the ability for traditional ICE to burn Diesel/Turpins/Gas/Alcohol (first distillation on up) etc. It really is incredible. It's actually incredibly easy.

1) No carboration/throttle body
2) Re-key the timing or adjust to TDC electronically
3) Needle Valve(s) at the cylinder intake valve with atleast 5% intake charge of hydrogen to idle the engine
4) other bio/petrol fuels for the main charge through direct injection (he has a cool spark plug + injector unit for retrofit).

He has working models and vehicles. An 4 cycle ICE, Turbine, etc. Will work. You don't need ceramic coated valves and pistons etc. Any off the shelf 4cycle ICE works. He has a test video on youtube with a 3cyl geo running on orange turpin.

BTW he says "everythings in my patents just read them and adapt it to your needs" he actually is a pretty cool guy.

The TDC allows for almost zero emissions as the cylinder walls coated with oil will not burn as the piston skirt and sides have covered the walls.

The problem is filling the Hydrogen tank......

That's my $.02 argue with me if you want but I have field exp......

[Ears]

Richard,
do you know the difference between steam and gas? Do you think that electrolized water is still H2O? Really? I think it is 2H2 and O2, so HHO is more clear than H2O, if you use electrolysis instead of steam.
If you wanna know, there are good results also with oil mixed with water, 20-30% water, heated a bit, and used as standard fuel for diesel engines. But this is another story.

Then, I said links, not attachments. do you know the difference?
links:
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3431
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2000-01-2206
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0232
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/981920
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-1270
They call it HRG, Hydrogen Rich Gas, what are these Universities obfuscating?

For the attachment: it isn't a standard electrolysis. It's high-voltage electrolysis with electric and magnetic fields, in pwm, with both a electronic and sonic resonance at certain frequencies.

If you have nothing to say, say nothing please.

Steam is a gas, or so I was taught at school, as opposed to water vapour (eg cloud, which isn't).
YOU wrote that HHO is water, I merely took you at your word, perhaps I shouldn't. If it's some other mixture of Oxygen and Hydrogen ions then you ought to have been more accurate, not my fault.

Being a little testy aren't you? This is why I don't debate religions.

[roberto]

YOU wrote that HHO is water, not my fault.

HHO

Also known as Klein gas, Brown Gas, HRG, Magnegas, an so on..
Is the gas produced from water dissociation

This is why I don't debate religions.

This is why you talk. Just to move some air..

[Ears]

What Roberto selectively ignores

"( HHO is just H2O produced in a special way)"

How can we trust anything you write?

[roberto]

Richard,
"WE"?? Pluralis Majestatis??
By now I don't care you trust me, I just would be satisfied if you only try to understand.

As for the water.. I think you can simply say "sorry, I haven't understood"

[Ears]

As I have an open mind I'm only too willing to give the ideas a chance, as evidenced by my willingness to download 3M through a LINK to the server.

But I'm certainly not going to apologise for applying standard english comprehension skills to the statement you wrote in your first post.

"( HHO is just H2O produced in a special way)"

Which brings me back to the point I initially made, if it's "just" H2O, why invent another term?

[dartanion]

a basic chemistry text will you understand the principles here. I bet you can even download one

[roberto]

Dartanion is right and I was wrong. I'm not talking about the effects of HHO, but how to present them.

Richard, in the first post I've said "( HHO is just H2O produced in a special way)", but just before I've written several times "gas". You have simply to add "gas" also between brackets: "( HHO is just H2O GAS produced in a special way)". Being a gas, it's not H2O, but due to electrolysis we have 2H2O --> 2H2+O2. So the "commercial" name HHO is easy to remember and absolutely correct.

A good starting point to understand what happens in the engine with HHO (that is an Hydrogen Rich Gas, or HRG) is what I've linked before. Those are studies made by Universities on HRG effects on emissions and fuel savings.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3431
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2000-01-2206
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0232
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/981920
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-1270

[Ears]

Thank you for the clarification.
I may browse the links over the next few weeks.
I would point out though, because I'm a pedant, that the gaseous form of water is steam. As water can exist as a gas the previous references to various names for the gas did not rule out the definition that followed.

[roberto]

Well, also steam helps reducing NOx, so if you prefer to use heat from exhaust to produce steam, this is something similar to Geet Pantone. You can try that one. It's easy to build. The best choice is a mix of both systems (and also other systems as well).

Tubetwang, nice bike! I agree. Electric motors will have tons of importance in cars of the next future. A good way to promote them could be starting some electric racing.

[Tubetwang]

Well, also steam helps reducing NOx, so if you prefer to use heat from exhaust to produce steam, this is something similar to Geet Pantone. You can try that one. It's easy to build. The best choice is a mix of both systems (and also other systems as well).

Tubetwang, nice bike! I agree. Electric motors will have tons of importance in cars of the next future. A good way to promote them could be starting some electric racing.

They are working on it Roberto...

Ferrari and Porshe- no match for A1 electric car...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qDZOBQs60w

Boys having fun...
www.roadtripamerica.com/wheels/flc.htm

I just love the numbers...0-60 in 3 sec, YEAH BABE!!!
www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html

Major Twang

[CaseyJones]

His process allows for TDC detonation, exhaust so clean you can breath it , and the ability for traditional ICE to burn Diesel/Turpins/Gas/Alcohol (first distillation on up) etc. It really is incredible. It's actually incredibly easy.

1) No carboration/throttle body
2) Re-key the timing or adjust to TDC electronically
3) Needle Valve(s) at the cylinder intake valve with atleast 5% intake charge of hydrogen to idle the engine
4) other bio/petrol fuels for the main charge through direct injection (he has a cool spark plug + injector unit for retrofit).

Implementation once again is a more complicated that it looks at first glance.

Let's go back to Tony's stationary diesel. It's a "flat earth" application because the fuel delivery map doesn't have substantial contour to it.

In a diesel app we can ignore ignition timing because diesels once running require no additional spark.

We can ignore a complicated fuel flow curve because the stationary diesel runs at a constant speed.

We can ignore a complicated fuel flow curve because the stationary diesel sees a consistent load.

Change speed and load parameters and it becomes necessary to change the fuel delivery curve.

"Setting ignition at TDC" is an oversimplification. Ideally ignition needs to be mapped in relation to fuel flow, air flow, air density, load and as many other variables as can be compensated for. In practice none of the variables are static.

In practice we need to meet increasingly stringent emissions requirements. Entire buildings full of very clever engineers work to bring us engine controls that meet all the criteria we have to build to. We require our powerplants to produce reasonable power at all speeds and loads. The EPA requires that our powerplants meet emissions requirements at all speeds and loads. The consumer requires that our products function at any altitude or temperature on varying grades of fuel. The OEMs barely hit their marks and only with great expense and effort.

[roberto]

Many pages of this thread just to say:
1) The principle is right and it works as is on carburettor engines
2) Needs some improvements to do its best on every condition, expecially with fuel injection engines.