Thoughts

[mchauck]

I believe the entire system of making something that lasts is built upon the rock of respect for ones self (the builder)and respect for the customer. Sheesh..it used to be that a man's handshake was his word, but that isn't the case today. I suppose there is a factor involving the rate at which things are made obsolete due to quickly advancing sciences as in the computer industry, which is driven by scientific evolutoion, competition and profit. So why waste time on a product making it last forever when it will be obsolete in a month or perhaps even by the time you buy it. It really is cool to see things from the past that are still like new. Just hold on to a real silver dollar and see what I mean.

Brian

[CaseyJones]

All planning is short term -- no one in business thinks even 2 years ahead!

I work for a huge bank, and I can't remember ever seeing any planning more than 12 months ahead for anything. "How can we maximize profit this quarter? this year? When things go sour we'll just take our bonuses and go work for another company who sees how well we maximized profitability for the shareholders." The modern "Flying Dutchman."

--mark

What we have is a tunnel vision focus on maximum profits with a preference for maximum short term profits. Diversification is good but it needs to be diversication without an absolute focus on profit above all else.

Here's an idea and it's just an idea, it probably won't happen. Bill Gates needs to open a shoe factory. Kudos to Bill for donating hundreds of millions to various worthy causes. I'm serious. Open a shoe factory. Make clothing HERE. Or re-start a derelict copper mine.

Sure, they're marginal businesses, that's why all that stuff comes from somewhere else. It's stupid to run businesses at a loss so don't run 'em at a loss. A multibillion dollar company could afford to open a shoe factory. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be happy to work at Bill's shoe factory. Pick out some depressed mill town with a run down city center and do it there.

We can't do that. It's too much like Socialism. We'd rather starve than to have Socialism.

Bring back a good paycheck from the shoe factory and I'll build you a telephone what will last 100 years or more. All those cell phones are going to end up in the junk heap in a year or so anyway.

[mchauck]

+1

[Buschman]

The fact is that not many of us would want to spend $500 on a hand built phone that you had to hand crank, did not sound clear, might have someone else talking on it, was too big for our pocket, did not come in custom colors & was considered non ergromic. The reason things are not built like they used to be is that technology has produced luxuries cheap enough for everybody, even old musicians.

[nickt]

What we have is a tunnel vision focus on maximum profits with a preference for maximum short term profits.

Maximum profit is not new but "absolute-a-mundo maximum" profit is pretty new - I'd say in the last 10-20 years. These days (at least in the USA, UK, Oz and the rest of the English speaking world - except India and Singapore of course) if a cut can be made it must be made - cookies off the tea trolley, drop the staff christmas party, in fact drop the staff...

There used to be a lot of folks living in the small inefficiencies. I recall the retarded bloke who swept the warehouse, washed the manager's car and raised the various company flags (Martin). The disabled bloke who wasn't paid that much and didn't fix that much working in the service department (Keith). The Brazillian tea-lady who basically opened the biscuit packets and not much else (Ada). All examples are from my old company circa 1981-1988.

Diversification is good but it needs to be diversication without an absolute focus on profit above all else.

This is actually called the "Rhineland model" and covers much of (non-UK) Europe.

The rival model Harvard Business School capitalism (ie economic rationalism) is basically what used to be known as the "spanish system" (ie beat the workers/indians/slaves harder - grind more out of what you have). In other words we've wound the clock back 500 years - great stuff eh

Damn it's only midday - I feel like a scotch or two

[nickt]

Couple of photos:

[nickt]

I suppose there is a factor involving the rate at which things are made obsolete due to quickly advancing sciences as in the computer industry, which is driven by scientific evolution, competition and profit. So why waste time on a product making it last forever when it will be obsolete in a month or perhaps even by the time you buy it.

You're right to an extent but certainly in consumer electronics and computing most of the "advances" are carefully managed and released for maximum profit even at the expense of innovation.

Manufacturers would rather do nothing and simply add marketing fluff than make new products - the car industry is a good example. Apart from electronic ignition, GPS navigators and other electronic goodies there hasn't been much advance (except in styling) since the 1920's when the metalurgy was all worked out. All the "new models" and most "new features" are just marketing fluff and planned obsolescense.

[dartanion]

Work smarter, not harder!!!

Yeah, right. Expect everyone to work overtime as you do the work of 4 people. No extra pay though. Exempt employees don't get overtime.

CEO pay up 400%
Average working stiff is losing ground every year.

Seems fair right?

[skyboltone]

All planning is short term -- no one in business thinks even 2 years ahead!

I work for a huge bank, and I can't remember ever seeing any planning more than 12 months ahead for anything. "How can we maximize profit this quarter? this year? When things go sour we'll just take our bonuses and go work for another company who sees how well we maximized profitability for the shareholders." The modern "Flying Dutchman."

--mark

Not so with the oil companys. We've got stuff planned out 15 years in advance. The problem is we're still working on stuff that needed to be done 15 years ago. "Pipeline corrosion?, What's the fun of working on that!!, I know, let's dish out some big bonuses and go play some golf!"

[CaseyJones]

Manufacturers would rather do nothing and simply add marketing fluff than make new products - the car industry is a good example. Apart from electronic ignition, GPS navigators and other electronic goodies there hasn't been much advance (except in styling) since the 1920's when the metalurgy was all worked out. All the "new models" and most "new features" are just marketing fluff and planned obsolescense.

I hate to argue as we're on the same side but... not a good example.

Engine controls go far beyond electronic ignition. Digital fuel injection works off a "map" to provide the correct mixture at all engine speeds and loads. A knock sensor and an oxygen sensor close the loop, they provide a parity bit so to speak that proves to the computer that the settings are correct. Sophisticated systems can compensate for fuel type and quality or make an engine live under turbo boost conditions that would have been inconceivable just a few years ago. Between advances in engine controls, manufacturing methods and metallurgy we can have our cake and eat it, too. We end up with engines that don't burn oil with 200k on the clock, they return better power and better fuel mileage. Cleaner, greener and meaner!

Another advance that you wouldn't have seen a decade ago... four wheel disc brakes. A step backwards... ABS. Anti-lock adds an unnecessary level of complexity.

Further advances: Better metallurgy and manufacturing methods save weight, material and make packaging innovations possible. Alloy wheels save weight. Save weight and you save fuel. Remove unsprung weight by substituting aluminum wheels for steel wheels and the suspension components can be made lighter. Lighter parts make the suspension easier to control, the shocks don't have to work as hard. The vehicle handles better.

Advances in packaging make the vehicle safer. Much more crashworthy.

NOW what we need to do is un-do '60s marketing hype about "road hugging weight", it's a fallacy. Lighter cars work better. Don't believe it? Racers will always lighten up to the absolute minumum allowed by the rules. Ultra-light F1 cars stick to the course at speeds over 200 m.p.h..

What we need to do is to convince the average driver that since they only use that SUV two days a year at full capacity to tow the boat to and from the lake... that they really don't need to pay the penalty in fuel the other 95% of the time. It's idiot math. Obviously we're dealing with idiots.

I'm gonna save the world one fight at a time, baby!

[skyboltone]

Racers will always lighten up to the absolute minumum allowed by the rules. Ultra-light F1 cars stick to the course at speeds over 200 m.p.h..

I've heard from a reliable source that the MB F1 cars will not leave the track surface even if the car were hanging upside down from an elevated track. Over a certain speed anyway........it must be getting late....free association time.

Did you know that an alligator can't breath through it's mouth? A chimpanzee has a larger and more open airway through it's nostrils than it's throat.

Go to bed Dan

[CaseyJones]

Did you know that an alligator can't breath through it's mouth? A chimpanzee has a larger and more open airway through it's nostrils than it's throat.

I know now!

Next time I need to asphyxiate an alligator or suffocate a chimp I'll know who to call!

[nickt]

Manufacturers would rather do nothing and simply add marketing fluff than make new products - the car industry is a good example.

I hate to argue as we're on the same side but... not a good example.

Engine controls go far beyond electronic ignition. Digital fuel injection works off a "map" to provide the correct mixture at all engine speeds and loads. A knock sensor and an oxygen sensor close the loop, they provide a parity bit so to speak that proves to the computer that the settings are correct. Sophisticated systems can compensate for fuel type and quality or make an engine live under turbo boost conditions that would have been inconceivable just a few years ago. Between advances in engine controls, manufacturing methods and metallurgy we can have our cake and eat it, too. We end up with engines that don't burn oil with 200k on the clock, they return better power and better fuel mileage. Cleaner, greener and meaner!

Hmm... I think you might be talking usage rather than availability. You are correct that these features weren't *used* in regular cars but I stand by my point that the advanced metalurgy and *mechanical* engineering is actually pretty old. Things like efficiency and/or greenness are different ways of applying old knowledge. They're not really *new* advances it's just they now equate to tick boxes on a purchase decision so get incorporated into design as *marketing* features.

I'm stretching my peanut brain but I believe one of the premium BMW bikes is exactly the same mechanically as it was when released in the 20's - aluminum alloy cylender block and all. (not into bikes so can't be specific).

With modern manufacturing (eg robots, "just-in-time" inventory) yes you're correct - there were no robots in the 1920's. (Well except for the sexy one in "Metropolis")

I'm gonna save the world one fight at a time, baby!

Aw geeze! It took two fronts to defeat Hitler!

[skyboltone]

Did you know that an alligator can't breath through it's mouth? A chimpanzee has a larger and more open airway through it's nostrils than it's throat.

I know now!

Next time I need to asphyxiate an alligator or suffocate a chimp I'll know who to call!

Yup, just stick yer thumbs up his nostrils and hold on!

[nickt]

Work smarter, not harder!!!

Yeah, right. Expect everyone to work overtime as you do the work of 4 people. No extra pay though. Exempt employees don't get overtime.

CEO pay up 400%
Average working stiff is losing ground every year.

Seems fair right?

Hey Dart - you said you work in a BIG bank, well so do I. With the sub-prime crisis they immediately started talking layoffs but magically two months later they reveal yet another record profit - do these eegits have any idea what they're doing?

Had a thought recently - over the last 500 years politically we've gone from a rabble of landed gentry, to absolute monarchs, to revolutions, to democracy (possibly to rolling back democracy ). Seems we're still at the absolute monarch stage WRT multi-national corporations