Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

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RockinRocket
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Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by RockinRocket »

I am quite curious if the general conscious of folks putting a name badge on their own builds as a good/bad, smart idea?

First I'm not really sure what everyone's background is here. Hobby, own and a registered company? I typically build and sell them off when I get bored. Ive built a dozen amps. Often, I break even or get to take the family out to dinner or even take a loss. Sometimes I think it would be nice to actually get some recognition and have some sort of identification.

To have a name badge you risk using someone else's owned named or soon to be and taking the heat for it. Like what happened to Tribute Wreck amps rebranded to Vintage Muscle .

I would like (hopefully) to get compensated for some of the build time when I part with them. Especially when the builds come out amazing. Then of course you have to worry about end of year taxes and keeping all your recipts ect.

Bad Idea to try and "brand" your own builds when not a legit registered company?
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xtian
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by xtian »

The big question is liability, and we've discussed this in the past, but always good for a reminder.
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ChopSauce
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by ChopSauce »

The big question is reliability if you manage to sell them, I guess (I haven't been here in the past.)

At least I feel much more comfortable with people puting their own badge than anyone else's name - even for their personal use.

Building an amp is something to would be proud of, so why not puting your own badge on it? Especially when it is - yet another field for creativity - as fun as a Monkey face 8)
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xtian
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by xtian »

Sorry to disagree, but reliability is not the issue to be concerned with when selling an amp you built with your name on it. It's liabilty. If someone dies, poking their fingers into your amp, or it sets fire to someone's house, folks may decide to sue you. Win or lose, it's expensive.
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RockinRocket
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by RockinRocket »

Yes the liability. I did consider this but forgot to mention it.

Sounds like a bad idea IMO now..

Xtian are you thinking that DIY amps with out a badge (not branded) is any more safe (from a liability stand point) as a seller than if you had a name badge mounted that might make one think you were legit or attempting branding as a company?

All the amps Ive made were interesting to me that I wanted to build it. But I cant keep every thing if I want to build more. Its a expensive hobby that's for sure.
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xtian
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by xtian »

RockinRocket wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:35 amXtian are you thinking that DIY amps with out a badge (not branded) is any more safe (from a liability stand point) as a seller than if you had a name badge mounted that might make one think you were legit or attempting branding as a company?
No, not thinking that. You're equally at risk if your name is on it or not!

That said, I'm not interested in incorporating, getting UL licenses, etc. etc.--I'm just trusting the universe to be cool.

Of course, entropy being what it is, we'll all end up cool eventually. :)
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romberg
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by romberg »

Reading this:

http://injury.findlaw.com/product-liabi ... ility.html

makes one leery of even "selling on the marketplace" a ball of lint that you manufactured yourself. Having a nameplate on the ball of lint probably would not matter. But the amount of money you have (and can be sued for) would :). Of course if the nameplate on your ball of lint was a trademark that you don't own or have a license to use then you could be sued for that in addition to any damage caused by manufacturing defects in your lint!

Kinda makes one wonder if you should not sell anything you manufacture at all if you don't have any legal protections. "If you buy this used Bic pen (not manufactured by me!) for 1200 dollars I will give you this amp for free!"

And of course I am not a lawyer. So, if you are concerned about getting sued you should probably talk to one. :)

Mike
Last edited by romberg on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by pompeiisneaks »

This is why it is often best to create an LLC, Limited Liability Company. Any legal action isn't against you, but your company. They can win a lawsuit, and you'd have to sell whatever was part of said company to pay for the legal costs, but it would end there, they couldn't make you sell your personal things, property etc. I've got an LLC setup for my original business a film company, that I recently changed into an amp building company as well (No I don't plan on getting rich, but since I enjoy building them, I figure I should make a legitimate business so I can sell the amps on the up and up, if I ever do sell them). But I'm no lawyer, and I could be completely wrong, that's my understanding of it. Creating an LLC isn't complicated, just takes some money, I think ours is about 200 dollars per year to maintain.

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ChopSauce
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by ChopSauce »

xtian wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:08 pm Sorry to disagree, but reliability is not the issue to be concerned with when selling an amp you built with your name on it. It's liabilty. If someone dies, poking their fingers into your amp, or it sets fire to someone's house, folks may decide to sue you. Win or lose, it's expensive.
Oooops, thanks for the precision! I have been missing this one. This indeed is something of a problem.
(but - anyway, if you do not sell any amp, there are no liability issues at all, either :mrgreen: )

-*- Maybe -*- a solution would be to include in your conditions some mention such as the buyer claims that he does master the use of tube amps, that he perfectlys knows how dangerous an amp can be/the safety rules, etc, that he will be the sole responsible for any disasters and that he "declines his rights" to intend any legal action for the above mentionned reasons.

As long as the amp you sell conforms to the safety norms, you should be rather safe. Not only does the buyer signed for never intending a legal action. He also acknowlegdes he is educated enough to know what he is doing, and you / your lawyer can take him for fully responsible of his actions.

This does not preclude creating an LLC, though :?
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ToneMerc
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by ToneMerc »

pompeiisneaks wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:38 pm This is why it is often best to create an LLC, Limited Liability Company. Any legal action isn't against you, but your company. They can win a lawsuit, and you'd have to sell whatever was part of said company to pay for the legal costs, but it would end there, they couldn't make you sell your personal things, property etc. I've got an LLC setup for my original business a film company, that I recently changed into an amp building company as well (No I don't plan on getting rich, but since I enjoy building them, I figure I should make a legitimate business so I can sell the amps on the up and up, if I ever do sell them). But I'm no lawyer, and I could be completely wrong, that's my understanding of it. Creating an LLC isn't complicated, just takes some money, I think ours is about 200 dollars per year to maintain.

~Phil
An LLC is a great start, it still does not necessarily protect you if you are negligent Also, you mention legal costs; that's one of the big items folks tend to forget, even if you absolutely nothing wrong, can you afford to defend yourself? When I was doing firearm training for profit, I carried almost 4 million dollars of liability insurance.

TM
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ToneMerc
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by ToneMerc »

ChopSauce wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:24 pm

-*- Maybe -*- a solution would be to include in your conditions some mention such as the buyer claims that he does master the use of tube amps, that he perfectlys knows how dangerous an amp can be/the safety rules, etc, that he will be the sole responsible for any disasters and that he "declines his rights" to intend any legal action for the above mentionned reasons.
Disclaimers are useless.....LOL

TM
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: Your Amp name badges (Bad Idea?)

Post by pompeiisneaks »

ToneMerc wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:49 pm
pompeiisneaks wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:38 pm This is why it is often best to create an LLC, Limited Liability Company. Any legal action isn't against you, but your company. They can win a lawsuit, and you'd have to sell whatever was part of said company to pay for the legal costs, but it would end there, they couldn't make you sell your personal things, property etc. I've got an LLC setup for my original business a film company, that I recently changed into an amp building company as well (No I don't plan on getting rich, but since I enjoy building them, I figure I should make a legitimate business so I can sell the amps on the up and up, if I ever do sell them). But I'm no lawyer, and I could be completely wrong, that's my understanding of it. Creating an LLC isn't complicated, just takes some money, I think ours is about 200 dollars per year to maintain.

~Phil
An LLC is a great start, it still does not necessarily protect you if you are negligent Also, you mention legal costs; that's one of the big items folks tend to forget, even if you absolutely nothing wrong, can you afford to defend yourself? When I was doing firearm training for profit, I carried almost 4 million dollars of liability insurance.

TM
Understood, but by the same token, you could likely just close the LLC and they could go to trial without you even being present, or you just defend yourself as the legal counsel for the LLC, not sure, but the liability for the problem becomes something you can lump on the company itself, not you as a person. Basically if you close the LLC, they can't sue a non existing entity, but they could likely take it to court, get a result from the judge and try and get that dollar amount from the settlement the judge agreed to, and the like, but those monies would only come from the LLC holdings not you. Liability insurance is very important for some areas of work, not so much for others. The area of firearm training makes sense as you're directly interacting with customers and dangerous weapons that can harm, maim and kill. When someone purchases something from someone, most of the risk is on them, except when the design itself is flawed, and causes harm. I've not heard yet of any lawsuits against television companies because someone opened up the television and electrocuted themselves by poking in the inner bits, On the other hand you hear of people using a device in it's normal use case and having something short out incorrectly and hurt or kill them. That's the danger area. (doesn't mean it "can't" happen, just that I see it as supremely unlikely. I think I saw someone put on their amps "No user serviceable parts inside, please refer to a trained professional" and that may be enough to protect you as well. They ignored the warning on the device, they're at fault. Again, I'm no lawyer, and hope nobody ever needs to deal with this type of thing.
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ChopSauce
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Just out of curiosity

Post by ChopSauce »

You certainly know the matter much more than I do, but I do not understand why any such disclaimer wouldn't be a fair foundation (nor a roof, neither walls) for one's defence, provided your products definitely comply to norms :?:

Certainly you ought to work in a domain where no gamble was acceptable, but I would be reluctant to definitely trust insurance companies &/or lawyers claming that there exist no way outside their business - more generally.

The advocates too might consider they can't afford the risk of... loosing in the final :wink:

EDIT: did not see the above message when posting; so sorry for any redundancies
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xtian
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Re: Just out of curiosity

Post by xtian »

ChopSauce wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 pmI do not understand why any such disclaimer wouldn't be a fair foundation (nor a roof, neither walls) for one's defence, provided your products definitely comply to norms :?:
In the US, legal protections are granted to you as a citizen, whether you know about them or not. For example, I own the copyright to these words, simply because I typed them. I do not need to write "Copyright 2017, all rights reserved."

And you cannot remove or diminish someone else's legal protections by pasting a disclaimer on your product.
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: Just out of curiosity

Post by pompeiisneaks »

xtian wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 pm And you cannot remove or diminish someone else's legal protections by pasting a disclaimer on your product.
I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean here. If I do, then it means that no warning ever put on any label protects people from liability. That seems a bit odd. Why else did McDonalds put a warning on their coffee that it's hot, if not to protect against further litigation. Or are you saying it's just a show for public 'appeasement' and has no validity?

Seems like basically nobody should ever do anything for fear of infringing on others' rights they may not even know about.

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