Too old for concerts? (rant)

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Jammin'John
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Concerts

Post by Jammin'John »

I don't go anymore.
It costs too much and it's a pain in the ass to go take a piss !
Most shows are too loud.
I go to small clubs and enjoy the intimacy.
I bring earplugs just in case.
We have a pre show tailgate party so we don't have to buy too much beer at the club.
Live music is the best...........
DVD's are OK in a pinch.

JJ
Let's ride/Let's Jam
BBQLS1
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by BBQLS1 »

CaseyJones wrote:
BBQLS1 wrote:Sometimes the equipment used just stinks as much as the venue.

I've seen Ozzy, ZZ Top, Sepultura, Type O Negative, and Nugent at the Jackson, MS coliseum. The only one who had good sound was Ozzy, the rest sounded awful.

I don't think I'll see another show there.
Maybe the room just sucks.

My idea of "good sound" for Ozzy... I can hear the band just fine. Can't hear the vocals at all.

For me that's a perfect Ozzy mix. :twisted:
I'm sure it's partly the arena, but mostly the house PA that everybody uses. :roll:

It works great for hockey game announcements though.
chromaticdeth87
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by chromaticdeth87 »

I don't know man I'm 20 and concerts still suck to me most times. I have had the pleasure of running the board for alot of hardcore bands and I loved it, but it was because I felt that I was an important part of the sound. I hate being part of the audience I guess.
Even at underground metal and hardcore shows, hell even and indie shows! the crowds are mainly drunks, xanxed out of their skulls, or just plain catatonic. And I'll agree with the other poster in this thread, society has made us afraid to fucking show some kind of empathy towards music. Yeah you can say those kids that do karate kicks and shit may be expressing themselves but how can they really justify that they are letting loose in a manner that is both artistic and emotional when they seem pretty standard, uniform, and lifeless to me. Hey, I saw this on MTV2 I must be cool! :roll: The last great show I saw was two years ago with thumbscrew, gaza, triumph of gnomes and someone else I can't remember. Old timers: you left us with a great world in which we built the internet and satellite television on, but while you were out working you forgot to show us young ones how to fucking rock and be original.
km6xz
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Beware:Long rant

Post by km6xz »

Sound systems are for ear-crippled house mixers, not audiences. There seems to be a power war between house mixers(I do not call man "sound engineers" because they aren't) competing on how much bottom end and how far into the pain region they can push systems. Even discos now commonly have 75,000 watts for subs covering a 4,000 sq ft room. But I can deal with that, that music was created for that and would sound bad if not stomach turning bass heavy...in fact I like dancing to it. But rock was more subtle than that, and dynamics are important elements of the performance. But the audience is the victim of that mixer's ego trip. The audience has no representative in the decision, no engineer, no manager, no one from the group, no promoter, no one goes out into the audience to see if anyone is enjoying it or whether the music is well presented. The stage monitors will normally be a much higher priority, someone would be fired if the monitors were not great.

I've seen a lot of groups and regardless of the style, large concerts are too loud such that there is no dynamic range left after pinning all on 11, there is no room for nuance, vocal harmonies are a thing of the past due to hall SPl being so high the auditory and visual cuing needed to harmonize with another singer are swamped.

My all time favorite band was moderately loud but everyone in group was very concerned with sound, stage volumes were kept moderate: Grateful Dead. During each technology advance their sound system was always the leading edge. The chemicals did not hurt either;>)

The problem with high power is less intelligibility. As the SPl goes up, our internal AGC lowers the perceived sound level, so that quiet passages are much too quiet to hear fully. That is why everyone has to yell at each other to be hear after the concert for a while.
The vocal power of the traditional pop or rock song is 50% of the total energy of the song on a record or a radio that is not too compressed. In a concert with all sound sources highly compressed to being in the red but not over 100% of the time, there is no sonic acoustic room left for any headroom for vocals to overcome the saturated sound of the total PA.
Sound and all our sense or gradient difference senses. Steady state stimulus is ignored for the most part(or else we would be driven crazy by just wearing clothes or laying on something when trying to sleep) but the change in stimulus gets our brain's attention at minute changes. You notice the miniscule buzzing of mosquito wings but not 180 lbs sitting sill on your butt. Sound is one of those pressure difference senses that is log in perception, not linear. The perception of loudness has little to do with SPl but a lot to do with change in level. Visit a 110 piece classical orchestra with a young person for the first time, and they will be amazed on the "power" of it. I took a GF's 14 year old a few years ago, he was a bass player in a rock band and was constantly complaining he could not hear himself because he "only" had 500 watts in his rig. When we exited from the concert he was silent. On the way home he asked "how much power did they have?" an explained it was the loudest music he ever heard, when coming out of a pastoral section into massed strings and horn section he said he almost fell our of his chair. That was the point absolute sound level had little bearing on his "feeling" of power. The quietest concert is in the 45db range and the highest with no PA system is 115 or a little more. That 70 db range assault the senses in ways the average rock concert could never in its range of 115 to 132db, even the best 150,000 watt systems would have a dynamic range that bores the senses with sameness so the SPL, although being higher, is less exciting, expressive and articulate.

The mixers do not understand that the enjoyment of and perception of wide dynamics require that the average level be low enough to allow peaks to be dramatically intense. The impression of a 40 db cressendo can blow the socks off an audience.
So for spending the extra $250,000-2,000,000 on power amps and speakers, the results are fewer tickets sold and less enjoyment by the remaining concert goers, fewer record sales and less interest in the group. Sounds like a wonderful investment. But the correction requires no expense, no compromise, nothing, except firing every house mixer out there and training a whole new group with an education in perception, music theory, physics, and showmanship. The bands should require the manager or other responsible team member to monitor and respond to the quality as hear by the audience.
Tubetwang
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by Tubetwang »

my first shows were in dance-halls, churches basements and high-school gyms.

Bands were Fender/Ampeg equiped, no monitors... fuck all...

Think Dion and the Bellmonts...

Musicians and their instruments.

I would be right in front...no echo problems...BIG sound!!!

Others were busy dancing...


My 13 year old wants to take me down to the Jonas Bros...

Different times...

Enjoy your music!

Major Twang
km6xz
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by km6xz »

Since subbass was not known to be part of music in the early 60s we did not know that it took much power to fill a hall.
My first regular concerts was every other night going to the music halls/auditoriums in the mid-late 60s in San Francisco. Every night there were 4-6 concert halls that were filled, and a play bill of 3-8 bands, most of which became popularly nationally or internationally by 1968-69. I lived on the hill immediately above the Family Dog, and close was was Filmore Auditorium(later moved and was Filmore West), the Loading Zone across the bridge, Carousel Ballroom, the Matrix and others.
We listened and danced to the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Big Brother, Santana, Steve Miller, Chambers Bros., Sons of Champlin, Tower of Power, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Creedence Clearwater Revival and Country Joe and the Fish, many more plus old blues artists who had been forgotten like Albert King, jazz greats and even Indian music. One of the hall owners, Bill Graham, wanted to expand everyone's music experience so between every rock band he included obscure old bluesmen or ethnic music which everyone really got into. We never heard sitar music until he booked Ravi Sankar and word spread quickly that this was great music. This was almost every night, this calibre or music for $2 or whatever. The city was not happy that these festivals were drawing so many young people, most had no jobs and just hung out. So they found an old 1800s law that forbid dancing unless it was licensed as a dance hall. Bill Graham got around that by calling each audience member a "paid cast member" and paid us in advance by handing out apples at the entrance as our salary. He also suggested it was our duty to dance. We did, in a strange early hippy sort of way, mostly trance like. These "dance performances would break up at 5-6 in the morning. The Dead were the soul and heart of the scene and would play for 3-4 hours, sometimes one song being 2 hours of it. I dbout there was every such great creative musicianship in such a small area, making music that never existed before and was different from any other band in the city.
Fun times, and I survived it!!
Still love live music but spent most of my life recording records...never listened to them after they were recorded except hearing one occassionally as I was tuning across the radio dail or hearing it on the street.

The music was loud but managible. Can you imagine a large dance hall filled with 1-2000 people thinking it was very loud when the total power in the amps for example at Filmore was a few 50 watt Altec tube PA amps and a bunch of A-7s and such? That is all it takes if you do not include subsonics in the sound.
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Ears
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Re: Beware:Long rant

Post by Ears »

km6xz wrote:<Snip> But the correction requires no expense, no compromise, nothing, except firing every house mixer out there and training a whole new group with an education in perception, music theory, physics, and showmanship. The bands should require the manager or other responsible team member to monitor and respond to the quality as hear by the audience.
Amen.
Great thread guys, and for the past 30 years i thought I was alone in the world.
Richard
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Ears
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by Ears »

And at risk of firing up Casey's ire, doing away with the soundman is why I won't go the low wattage route unless dragged there kicking and screaming. Sure, you can get a great PA with specs to spare but your little 15 watter is always gonna place your sound the mercy of the soundman! :wink: :)
km6xz
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by km6xz »

Richard, I do not propose getting rid odf "soundmen", just the ones working today. Replace them with people trained that their mission is not to play ego games but to enhance the experience and communications of the musician's intent. They, along with the performers and audience should be viewing the experience as a team effort. Small amps lower stage volume which improved vocals, and monitoring, plus are easier to get the desired tone from....besides the advanages of low weight means less road damage and larger harder to transport road cases. There is NO downside to a properly configured relatively low stage volume setup.

Good aural location and depth perception can be maintained with even a sight portion of direct from stage sound arriving at the listener's ears at in time alignment with the PA(meaning slightly delayed), the imaging would still be determined by stage sound if it is 1-5% of the sound level as the PA.
There are lots of ways to make concerts fun again and few of those ways involves changing anything except attitudes.
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Ears
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by Ears »

km6xz wrote:Richard, I do not propose getting rid odf "soundmen", just the ones working today. <snip>
I realised that :D :wink: (but don't tell Casey or that when sound system utopia arrives I'll be first to trade my Kt88s for 6V6s.)
CaseyJones
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by CaseyJones »

Ears wrote:
km6xz wrote:Richard, I do not propose getting rid odf "soundmen", just the ones working today. <snip>
I realised that :D :wink: (but don't tell Casey or that when sound system utopia arrives I'll be first to trade my Kt88s for 6V6s.)
"Raise Casey's ire"? "Get rid of the soundman"?

Lynch the bastard. I got a rope right here! :twisted:

Seriously, I'll give up what I thought was one of my best ideas:

A lot of people go to clubs to try and get laid. You really got it all figured out if you can make the necessary negotiations while shouting over a loud P.A..

Back in me New York days everyone had a Walkman. So, there's the thing... out-techno techno. Keep the sound pressure levels onstage down at Public Library levels. Electronic drums, maybe even an isolation booth or screens for the vocals. In-ear monitors for everyone onstage. Feed the mix into a small transmitter, bring yer Walkman and hear the show.

Then... if you have something more important to do like work out the details of the rest of the evening's festivities you just take off yer headphones.

There's one glaring flaw to my plan, you wouldn't get that subsonic skeletal buzz we've all come to expect from the subs. O.k., maybe feed everything from 50hz or 100hz down into real live high powered subwoofers. The rest goes to the transmitter. I expect you could still hold a conversation over the subs, conversation takes the same space vocals take up in the mix. No vocals to the subs, obviously.

I dig the weird factor of a whole room full o' people groovin' to something only they can hear.
km6xz
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by km6xz »

When I was in the seventh grade, we used to have sock hops every Friday afternoon but it was announced one afternoon that they would come to an end because an Adult Education class was starting in the room next door after hours when the sock hop was held.
I was sort of interested in thr dances because a girl I liked went to them.
I was a thoroughly geeky electronics buff, having a complete lab at home for designing RF gear.
My solution to the problem was to run hundreds of turns of magnet wire in a large loop around the molding at the top of the wall/ceiling junction and feeding tht with a home built amp that had a characteristic output Z of 20 ohms. The I built a small high gain amp with a passive t-notch filter tuned to 60 Hz using transistors and an antenna of a loop type. This drove headphones directly. The first experiment resulting in a whole passive headphone matching unit instead of an amplifier. That proved not loud enough so the 3 transistor super darlington amp was used to drive the headphones. I built the prototype and the science club members built the others so there were enough headsets and amps for all the attendees. That worked really well, and the notch filter prevented much 60 hz power line induced noise from being heard. They were still using it when I went away to high school.
That was a long time ago but I still go out dancing every couple of days. In fact I just got home from dancing at an English pub that has live bands every night.
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kec
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by kec »

My last concert was Buddy Guy in a small venue (<500 people). Sound was good and at the right levels - not too loud. I'm 48 and find I'm getting real sensitve to loud music. Which is why I don't go to concerts anymore, unless it's a small venue.

I also saw Michael Hedges in this same venue. Sound was excellent as was he.

Probably the best sounding concert for me was Pink Floyd during the Animals tour. I was right in front of the stage (festival seating).

The worst: My first concert when I was 16, Aerosmith. Sound was awful - playing was awful. I presume because this was during their drug days.
Ken

Real guitars are for old people! - Cartman
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Colossal
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by Colossal »

kec wrote:Probably the best sounding concert for me was Pink Floyd during the Animals tour. I was right in front of the stage (festival seating).
kec,

I'm envious, Animals is one of my favorite albums. Great songs and guitar tones especially. I never get tired of it. I'll bet that was a great show. I saw Floyd (sans Waters) back on the Division Bell tour at the Rose Bowl in CA. The sound was truly incredible and anywhere you sat, you could see the spectacle!
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kec
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Re: Too old for concerts? (rant)

Post by kec »

Colossal wrote:kec,

I'm envious, Animals is one of my favorite albums. Great songs and guitar tones especially. I never get tired of it. I'll bet that was a great show. I saw Floyd (sans Waters) back on the Division Bell tour at the Rose Bowl in CA. The sound was truly incredible and anywhere you sat, you could see the spectacle!
Yeah, it's one of my favorites too. I think that album usually gets passed over when you think of Pink Floyd, but it's excellent.
Ken

Real guitars are for old people! - Cartman
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