To those who voted.

[Structo]

Yes, but every hospital will take an indigent and treat them for nothing.

I suppose some hospitals will turn them away but it is part of there mandate to treat everybody.

That is why the illegal immigrants are driving the cost of insurance up.

Somebody has to pay for their ER visits.......

It is estimated in Oregon if the illegals all disappeared tomorrow, that the state would be in the black $50 billion.

[Tubetwang]

I noted that the comment on universal health care was from our friend in Montreal Canada.....

I lived in Canada for awhile and got to see their Utopian health care system first hand.... It's Universally below average at best....

I could not even find a doctor that would accept patients in my area for 3 months and only succeeded when by CEO pulled some strings. The facilities are very dated (reminded me of the military), and the wait for care crazy.

Then if you need an operation (I needed knee work), the waiting list is long and sometimes they just run out of budget... tough shit about that brain tumor you're nursing, Mr. Jones.....

I'll stick to my current company PPO, thanks very much...

Ron

Well, i know they serve Canadians first...so a little wait would be acceptable in this particular case...

You could've got 4 new goldplated knees for the price=0=one in India...
with triple AAA standards.

I understand service and equipment is below par here, but, it is not so bad after all...

Economical but...cancer patients die before going through chimio treatments.

I for one could'nt get a properly-second-hand-functioning-knee at my local hospital.

So they have amputate below the knee for know, and, the doctor has fitted me with a wooded leg...

I overheard the surgeon saying that my new leg would slow me down some chasing the nurses...

[Deric]

It is estimated in Oregon if the illegals all disappeared tomorrow, that the state would be in the black $50 billion.

How do you figure? Over how may years?

The way I see it, it's still "government". They'll find another way to spend "your" money.

[strato17]

I guess this isnt considered low cost insurance by some, but most of my musician friends have $100,000 health insurance policies and they pay around $140.00 a month, $30.00 copay for doctor's visits, and get $4.00 prescriptions at Wal-Mart.

$140.00 a month is expensive for some families, no doubt. But nothing frustrates me more than seeing families with digital cable, high-speed internet, luxury cars with $5000 rims, and iphones for the whole family, but claim they need government handouts. This is a slight exageration, but only a slight one. I am not just assuming these things, my sister is a school nurse at an inner-city high school in Dallas and she sees this stuff on a daily basis.

I am not saying that all of the 47 million unisured can afford it, but I know that if some of those families would live within their means and cut some of the luxuries they see a as a right and necessity, they could afford insurance. But as a mother once said at my sister's workplace, "Why should I work for something if I can get it for free?", My sister replied, "Because I pay for it!"

Just my 2 cents, FWIW.

[CaseyJones]

Yes, but every hospital will take an indigent and treat them for nothing.

I suppose some hospitals will turn them away but it is part of there mandate to treat everybody.

"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."



I have a relevant anecdote:

A buddy of mine and his girlfriend have a penchant for inebriation, they get drunk at a bar a couple towns over then take the backroads home. One night they were hammered (as usual), drove back home (as usual) in her old truck (as usual). What was unusual about this particular night is that a large tree lept into their path... where they had never seen a tree before. Well... had they not strayed from the beaten path they would have missed that tree, they were way off the road when they hit it. The ejection seats went off, they weren't weating seat belts, they both went out through the windshield.

It was only a couple hundred yards from home so they staggered in and went to bed.

The next day it looked like attempted murder in their bedroom. They both had been half scalped when they went out the windshield and of course cuts to the face or scalp bleed like crazy. So being as they were sober by then they both piled into his car (yeah, could have been much worse) and off they went to the hospital. 'Course 12 to 14 hours later wounds don't close as nice as they do when they're fresh. Anyway... she had insurance, he didn't. They closed the big flap on her forehead with neat little cosmetic surgery stitches, you can't hardly see the scar. They had an intern stitch the similar wound on his forehead with big ol' sutures, you can see it from across the room. They got his and hers scars now so they're a "match made in heaven". Hers is a lot less obvious than his.

I am not saying that all of the 47 million unisured can afford it, but I know that if some of those families would live within their means and cut some of the luxuries they see a as a right and necessity, they could afford insurance. But as a mother once said at my sister's workplace, "Why should I work for something if I can get it for free?", My sister replied, "Because I pay for it!"

Today's math lesson:

Like I said, you got a job, you can afford health insurance. Here's the "what if"... what if you ain't got a job? Chew on this... 10% unemployment nationwide is a real possibility in the near future. Yeah, you got yours right now. Don't blink, your situation can change that quickly.

Total idiot math: Your employer wants to cut costs. Great, you get to keep the crappy job. You lose yer crappy health care.

[Structo]

It is estimated in Oregon if the illegals all disappeared tomorrow, that the state would be in the black $50 billion.

How do you figure? Over how may years?

The way I see it, it's still "government". They'll find another way to spend "your" money.

Per year.

This counting social programs and public schools.

That figure might even be a low ball estimate.

That's because they can't get an accurate census of the illegals.

The numbers have been dropping recently because they made new rules for drivers licenses.
You have to show your birth certificate in order to get one now.
But, I guess that doesn't apply to presidential candidates......

[Jana]

You have to show your birth certificate in order to get one now.
But, I guess that doesn't apply to presidential candidates......

Maybe they don't have the same laws in Arizona.

[CaseyJones]

It is estimated in Oregon if the illegals all disappeared tomorrow, that the state would be in the black $50 billion.

How do you figure? Over how may years?

The way I see it, it's still "government". They'll find another way to spend "your" money.

Per year.

This counting social programs and public schools.

That figure might even be a low ball estimate.

That's because they can't get an accurate census of the illegals.

The numbers have been dropping recently because they made new rules for drivers licenses.
You have to show your birth certificate in order to get one now.

Great. Put 'em on a bus and send 'em.

You'd best acquire a taste for spruce needles 'cuz like I said, "Someone has to pick the veggies."

While we're at it we have to find people to do the rest of the long list of dirty, demanding, and dangerous jobs currently performed (without complaint I might add) by "illegals".

No worries there I guess. We may soon have long lines of unemployed slobs willin' to stoop to new lows. I hope you ain't one of 'em.

[Structo]

Well that all good and well.

People always say that the illegals do what the whities won't.

Being in the construction biz I disagree.
I have first hand knowledge of many illegals that are even in the union trades. One guy had three different names and ID's.
When the drywall taping slowed down guess what?
He used a different ID and became a union plasterer.
When that slowed down he became a union sheet rocker.
These are pretty high paying journeyman jobs.

I understand that the people in the Southwest states have had to deal with illegals for generations but up here it's relatively new as we saw a huge influx of them in the last 15 years.
I'm not against Mexicans becoming Americans.
I am against illegal immigration and then these same illegals flaunting the fact by moving into the neighborhood and living like they are in Tijuana.

20 people living in one house, 10 cars parked in front and in the yards.
Playing the loud fiesta music at late hours with the subwoofer tubas knocking the china off the shelves, etc.

As unemployment grows, the lower end jobs that people used to go to in hard times are taken by, guess who?

[Tubetwang]

Up here in Canada...nobody i know goes to a Doctor or Hospital when dumping from skateboard or falling off trains...the shoe repair dude is quick to stich...he has all the machinery and tools to give you a facelift.

You may even ask him to install a zipper on your nose or pour dyes in yar scars. It's all the rage up here. Like a tatoo... only better...

He'll put some 9" nails on your forehead for an extra fin.

I saw a guy with styletto heels clipped to his ears...

These guys don't care about tone.

[Tubetwang]

Well that all good and well.

People always say that the illegals do what the whities won't.

Being in the construction biz I disagree.
I have first hand knowledge of many illegals that are even in the union trades. One guy had three different names and ID's.
When the drywall taping slowed down guess what?
He used a different ID and became a union plasterer.
When that slowed down he became a union sheet rocker.
These are pretty high paying journeyman jobs.

I understand that the people in the Southwest states have had to deal with illegals for generations but up here it's relatively new as we saw a huge influx of them in the last 15 years.
I'm not against Mexicans becoming Americans.
I am against illegal immigration and then these same illegals flaunting the fact by moving into the neighborhood and living like they are in Tijuana.

20 people living in one house, 10 cars parked in front and in the yards.
Playing the loud fiesta music at late hours with the subwoofer tubas knocking the china off the shelves, etc.

As unemployment grows, the lower end jobs that people used to go to in hard times are taken by, guess who?

Well...i only hope they don't come up here when all the bankruptcies starts to pile up ...

Could you please tell them immigrants..."there is no Lettuce here"...
It's cold and damp.
Rainin' all tha time...
It's the bloody 3th world here...
Even worst than Tijuana...


I know of at least 100 places between Quebec and Vermont + New-York States where anybody with a bad haircut will go through ze 45th parrallel without answering to anybody...

Oh well...

[CaseyJones]

20 people living in one house, 10 cars parked in front and in the yards.
Playing the loud fiesta music at late hours with the subwoofer tubas knocking the china off the shelves, etc.

Parr-Tay!

And that's different from me playin' "Voodoo Chile" cranked 'n' drunk 'n' so loud my neighbor's dog howls a quarter mile away?!

Here's the way it works...

Creepin' up on 400 years ago some Anglos came across on a boat. They came across on a boat because they were the designated ("n" word) in the land they were born in. Came here, life was good.

Creepin' up on 300 years ago some Africans were rounded up and brought over in the holds of slave ships because slave traders considered them to be the designated ("n" word). Came here, life wasn't good. But it got there.

Creepin' up on 200 years ago we got Swedes, Germans, Irish, Polish, English, you name it... they came here and were immediately designated as the ("n" word) du jour. They worked hard, assimilated, eventually life was good.

Between now and then they've come. They came because Europe was a war-torn shithole twice during the last century. There ain't no food where they're from, there ain't no jobs where they're from, there ain't no dignity for them where they come from. They're the designated ("n" word) where they come from. So they come here. Then they're the designated ("n" word) here.

So, even though "them" and "us" are interchangable and we'd like to ship "them" back to where they came from... in reality we're them and they're us. It don't matter, Mayflower, Ellis Island, a slave ship or float over to the Keys on a scrap of wood... it's mostly a matter of when we got here. I guess we're so racist we'd like to send black, brown, yellow or red "back to where they came from" and designate low income white folk as the ("n" word) du jour. What the hell, why not? We can draw battle lines wherever we want and designate whoever we want as the "enemy"... whenever we want.

It's an imaginary line drawn up by dumb-asses who believe in imaginary lines.

[Cygnus X1]

Uh...dang...

Where was the restroom again?

[Deric]

Per year.

This counting social programs and public schools.

That figure might even be a low ball estimate.

That's because they can't get an accurate census of the illegals.

Right. So they don't really know:

1. How much they would save on social services if they all packed up and left.
2. How much revenue the state would lose if they all packed up and left.

In the end, IF the savings did outweigh the loses you can bet the State would still manage to spend it. Fast.

I've long wondered just how screwed our national economy would be if they all loaded up and disappeared overnight.

[Abstract]

Per year.

This counting social programs and public schools.

That figure might even be a low ball estimate.

That's because they can't get an accurate census of the illegals.

Right. So they don't really know:

1. How much they would save on social services if they all packed up and left.
2. How much revenue the state would lose if they all packed up and left.

In the end, IF the savings did outweigh the loses you can bet the State would still manage to spend it. Fast.

I've long wondered just how screwed our national economy would be if they all loaded up and disappeared overnight.

Right on!

Illegal immigrants aren't doing high-paid, glamorous jobs...they're doing the shit that fussy Americans don't WANT to do. They're gutting chickens...picking vegetables...cleaning up after fussy Americans...shitty jobs.

Believe me...you WANT them (the working ones) here.





If our govt got serious about keeping the rapists and robbers in prison we wouldn't have some of the gang problems that plague us...


....but until they let the dope smokers OUT of jail...they can't get the gangsters IN!!!