This forum - too much attitude lately.

[sliberty]

Let me start by saying that this posting is just my opinion, and essentially a personal request.

When I joined the Amp Garage over two years ago, this was an amazing place. Everyone I met on this forum was knowledgeable and giving, or novice and humble (I was the later). Noone had attitude problems, and everyone would go out of their way to help others. I was rather the novice when I joined (some would say I still am), and I learned immensly from the smart, friendly and generous folks that hung out here. It was never about "what the other guy contributed". It was about how "I could contribute to someone else".

I also sometimes visit the Gear Page, which is a fucking hole where obnoxious, know-it-all jack asses go to proclaim how smart they are. The difference was staggering. [yes, there are also good people there, but they get drowned out by the clowns]

Lately, this place has really been changing for the worse. The level of knowledge is still very high, and if you approach people in the right way, you cian still get an offer of help, but the key is that you have to walk on eggshells (with some folks anyway). It shouldn't be that way, and it doesn't have to be that way.

A short time ago, a newbie asked about the schematic for an amp called a Steroid (he meant Asteroid, but didn't know better). He had not posted much (if at all) before, and didn't "introduce himself" properly. He got ripped apart by some of the folks here. It seems he didn't offer the secret handshake or something. Currently, there is a thread in which Dave Funk seems to have stepped on a landmine too, and body parts have been flying ever since. Why all the angst?

The hostility just isn't necessary. Let's not let this place start to resemble the Gear Page. Let's keep it friendly, and helpful, and generous.

Remember, if you don't like a post, you don't need to rip someone apart over it in public. You have two other much better options. You can PM them and suggest that they present themselves better in public, or you can simply ignore the post (the equivalent of changing the channel when you don't like the TV show).

Let's not ruin a great thing.

Can't we all just ..... get along?

Steve

[chief mushroom cloud]

I agree....time to pm

[Ampsterdoom]

A short time ago, a newbie asked about the schematic for an amp ... and didn't "introduce himself" properly. He got ripped apart by some of the folks here. It seems he didn't offer the secret handshake or something. Currently, there is a thread in which Dave Funk seems to have stepped on a landmine too, and body parts have been flying ever since. Why all the angst?

The hostility just isn't necessary...Remember, if you don't like a post, you don't need to rip someone apart over it in public. You have two other much better options. You can PM them and suggest that they present themselves better in public, or you can simply ignore the post (the equivalent of changing the channel when you don't like the TV show).

Let's not ruin a great thing....

Steve

Steve, Pardon me for the editing of your words, they were all good thoughts, I just cut it down to a few that I felt some resonance with and I'll add a few of my own.

This forum is a good thing for amp builders and we have Ken Fischer to thank for building some great amps to learn from. I think the attitude that is showing up is due to a few mindsets that I can see and probably a lot others that I don't. It is in part because a few folks believe they are the keeper of the Holy Grail - the Trainwreck Police if you want to think of it that way. I see the forum as divided among those that think the greatest way to honor Ken is to exactly reproduce his amps while another sector wants to learn from him and move on. Both ways of thinking may have merit and it's hard to say if one honors the Trainwreck legacy better than the other.

Some folks have established themselves as an authority which is somehow relative to the number of posts they have made. Then who knows what others are thinking when they put themselves on the throne of Zeus to throw lightning bolts around?

We should all be aware that Ken Fischer never wanted his amps cloned and his family greatly dislikes and distances itself from anyone involved in that practice. We have have that information directly from his family and friends. Yet, we all know that Ken Fischers amps borrowed a great deal from other amps. So what is right and what is wrong and how can we best honor the genius of Mr Fischer?

Yelling at newbies is wrong while endless tolerance of silly questions is not necessary either. I would suggest that anytime you get the urge to set someone straight that you go back and revisit you first dozen posts and look at your first dozen amp builds. Then see if you can offer a newb some kind words and a little help.

Ken Fischer was legendary not only for his amplifiers, but his kind and gentle spirit. The greatest honor to him would be to treat others in the way that he would have.

Consider things with the thought that you just don't know who is watching and reading these posts, the reality of it might be shocking to you.

Dr. Doom

[billyz]

Maybe it's the economy. It has been getting pretty tense here lately. Everyone has an opinion an experience, a story. I for one like to hear about other ideas even if I don't think I will agree, sometimes I found out later maybe they had something valid to say. I don't think we have to agree but we should be able to read a different opinion without flaring up.

[Big Daddy]

I'm kind of new here but have been a member for a while and have not posted yet.

That happens to all forums. It's human nature.....

I was on the Weber forums for many years and I will not post there ever again.

People are what they are and they need to be policed. When the people who need policing become the self appointed police then you have real problems.

I am also into sports and was a moderator on a sports forum. You think musicians are bad!!!!! The sports fan has to be the most arrogant and ignorant of the lot. I gave up trying to teach people how to be civil to each other.

The big problem is what I call computer muscles. People can hide behind their screen never having to physically confront anybody, so they become Mike Tyson or Arnold without ever having to go to the gym. It gives instant power to those who know how to use it. Like having a gun, it doesn't take much strength to pull the trigger.

There is no need to bully anybody except for those who are dangerous in terms of misinforming people who do not know better. People like a guy named Adams who frequented the Weber forum with his moronic statements. He was shown to be what he was, a truly mentally ill individual on a clinical level with a bad case of Narcissism.

When I encounter these trolls and people who for any reason seem to have serious personality disorders I try to reason with them or ignore them. If they persist without anybody correcting the situation I leave. There are many forums that this does not happen and I search them out and find a place I can express my thoughts without having some little jerk attack me for no reason other than to build their own self image.

[drhulsey]

Interpreting words written on a page is VERY different from interpreting words uttered from a person you can see. You're even at a disadvantage when you can only see a person's face and not their entire body. You tend to read emotions into written text that may not be held by the writer. I have seen many acrid arguments on the web simply due to misinterpretation. And, as Big Daddy said, some people just want to argue and bully. These are all a short-coming of the internet. It's also dehumanizing, but it's what we've got for the time being.
I try (sometimes successfully) to remember how I would react in a face-to-face situation AND to remember that we're NOT talking about solving world hunger or preventing global thermonuclear war. We and those on most other forums are talking about subjects that other folks could care less about. This was previously accomplished by local or regional group meetings, eg., computer user groups, quilting circles, gem and mineral societies, etc. The advantage of the internet is that people from all around the globe can participate and learn from each other. HOW POWERFUL IS THAT Moderators ten to get tired of having to crack down on the abusers and sometimes close forums (fora for the purist)
We all just need to take a deep breath, remember what we're here for, recall that it is supposed to be fun, keep in mind that it is a privilege and not a right, and be respectful and polite.
As our mother's used to say, "If you boys/girls (is that politically correct?) are going to fight, TAKE IT OUTSIDE"

[bcmatt]

It's interesting how forums can become like little worlds. They have their own creation stories and histories.

Just like the real world, 'power' and 'authority' come into play. "Power" is obvious. The moderators have the power to end things, to delete, to ban, to make stickies. Therefore, their friendly suggestions will always hold a great deal of weight, because there is a certain amount of fear involved in not obeying because of the potential consequences.

"Authority" is a little different (and in some ways more far-reaching). You really truly value what someone with authority says, because you have a respect for them that is not merely connected to the fear of what they can do to you. They earned this "authority" through generosity and self-sacrifice. (For the real world I would say "sacrificial love", -think of your mother; or of Jesus since today actually is Christmas).

For Christmas, I'll venture to say that it's quite remarkable how God would show who he is by not exercising power, but rather choosing to make himself low like us humans in order to earn our respect, and reveal true authority by self-sacrifice and truly humiliate himself by allowing us to execute him (which turned out to be in our place and for our benefit).

I think that people will a lot of the time default to craving power (which is wrong if it wasn't given to you). I think the moderators here are great, by the way, and they do hold a lot of "authority" to me as well. But on every forum, you get other power-hungry people trying to police and be rude to people. Then you have loads of people that really just love to be of any help to anyone who could use some advice. I think this forum is great because it contains a whole lot of guys who have earned authority by their constant sharing of knowledge and willingness to help. We really value what they say, and I really appreciate what so many put into this site.

I appreciate how gentle people were with me at first as well when I ignorantly made my first posts (before I had even heard of Trainwreck), probably posting in the completely wrong sections, and asking for help on random things. I think I probably asked about speaker selection for a DC30 in the Trainwreck discussion section. Oops!

[declan]

I've been here on and off for almost a year now, however I post much much less than I read. I have to say, for me anyway, I have not found that attitude on here, in fact quite the opposite.

I have no idea which particular threads or members are involved in this aparent change on the ampgarage......I would guess that there are possibly one or two members responsible, and unfortunately the only way to cure a disease like this is to warn it once then cut it out without delay, regardless of the status or post count of the member involved.

I made the mistake of delaying this action as the admin of another forum and as painful as it may seem at the time it is the only way.

Forums are not a democracy, members need to be reminded that they are guests in the house of the admin and moderators, and the admin and moderators should not fear throwing out disruptive guests. On the flip side it must also be the responsibility of the members to point these issues out in private to the admin before they become real problems.

In the end its only an internet forum which 99% of people come to for fun, if it isn't fun deal with it or walk away, the latter is not usually an easy option for the admin or moderators which is why they need everyones direct, and when appropriate, private support to weed out troublemakers. Keep the dirty laundry out of sight, it only serves to fuel further misunderstandings and arguments.

All new members should be forced to watch these first

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D2XpnNcjp ... re=related

happy Xmas and long live ampgarage, one of the most friendly places on the net where I learned to build an amp and received help from many who asked for nothing in return..... you have my support

[selloutrr]

I agree this place is getting as bad as a yahoo chat room. way to much hating going around.

[Normster]

All new members should be forced to watch these first

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D2XpnNcjp ... re=related

Funny AND educational. Perfect!!!

Every now and then, this place will have a pissing contest, but for the most part I find that it's very civil. When things do get out of hand, I have to agree with Steve...take it outside (via PM) or just walk away from it.

Cool, my post count goes up by 1!!!

[drhulsey]

... for the most part I find that it's very civil...

I agree

[CaseyJones]

Where would rock 'n' roll be without attitude?!!!

I know... Donnie and Marie! There's yer "rock 'n' roll" sans attitude.

[drhulsey]

Where would rock 'n' roll be without attitude?!!!

There's attitude.... and there's bad attitude

[HeeBGB]

We should all be aware that Ken Fischer never wanted his amps cloned and his family greatly dislikes and distances itself from anyone involved in that practice.

I would like to simply correct something with this statement. Ken did NOT have a problem with people cloning his amps for personal use. He did however not like commercial cloners or people doing it for profit. I have a letter from Ken on old Ampeg stationary stating this. It is well documented.

[RJ Guitars]

We should all be aware that Ken Fischer never wanted his amps cloned and his family greatly dislikes and distances itself from anyone involved in that practice.

I would like to simply correct something with this statement. Ken did NOT have a problem with people cloning his amps for personal use. He did however not like commercial cloners or people doing it for profit. I have a letter from Ken on old Ampeg stationary stating this. It is well documented.

HeeBGB - is this letter something that could be posted in the archived files? Was this a letter to you as an individual or is something that he intended as a "permission slip" for any builder?

thanks,

rj