Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

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Toppscore
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:19 am

iknowjohnny wrote: I don't know about your modded one, . . . . . but i had a rivera designed concert . . . . had a distortion channel that could possibly sound remotely like a dumble. This coming from someone who's never played a dumble. So then why would i say that? Because, the concert's distortion was horrid! If a dumble's OD is remotely as good as it's said to be, there can be no comparison. The clean sound is a different story, and where the concert sounded good. The distortion was one of the worse i've owned, and i've owned a lot of amps in 40 years of playing.


Good reason the custom amp builder modified the Concert II. Maybe the Twin Reverb II
and the Concert II (as other Internet comments have mentioned) provide
a good/great "base chassis foundation" and/or initial circuit design
allowing improvement. Maybe the Concert II/TR-II are the best priced
amps that are factory produced and easy to procure.
This particular custom amp builder never declared any comparisons to Dumble,
many others have (search the Internet) and this is the reason for my post.

But, this particular amp builder states his newly highly modified Concert II
is as clean as Ted Nugent tones using a Tweed 1950s Bassman;
and as distortedly crunchy as early Eric Clapton 1960s Marshalls.
Also, he states to have created "his special version" of amp circuitry
that manages NFB electronics while controlling NFB output.
He's starting a boutique amp building business based upon his theorys.
Seems good to me.

I do agree that Factory issued Fender-II amps are not Dumble amps as shipped.
but, there must be something SOME players/amp pros like AFTER modifications
and custom upgrades are applied to 1980s Paul Rivera Fender-II amps.

Don't cha think? Again, the reason for my post is this inquiry.

iknowjohnny wrote:As heavily modded as yours appears to be, even if it does sound like a dumble that says nothing about the concert. You can heavily mod most any amp thats somewhat similar (or not even) to a dumble to sound like one. Just depends on how far you wanna go. But the concert was a good fender clean amp, nothing more. The drive channel is just an unfortunate addon.
"I Know Johnny" ~ I agree to some point.
But again, MAYBE THERE ARE REASONS SOME amp techs & guitar pros
do use and do prefer Paul Rivera designed Fender-II series of amps . . . . . rather than
Fender Champs or Twins or Deluxes, solid state amps, Marshall amps,
Peavey amps, Silvertone amps, Gibson amps, etc etc.
If this possiblity exists, then the reason for my post and inquiry :)
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Toppscore
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:30 am

ToneMerc wrote:
tribi9 wrote:This post read like an infomercial... :shock:
yeah, this isn't The Gear Page though.................LOL - TM
Yes. But no selling or pricing 8)
Just INFO :idea:
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Toppscore
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? N

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:43 am

Lynxtrap wrote: What are the "Lee Jackson"-mods..? Any chance seing the schematics?
Yes I do. Give me time as I need to compile the notes.
I believe there is a rough-draft schematic for my amp tech, if ever needed.
All resistor, capacitor, potentiometer values/value changes are discussed.
Good for me to organize this info, as I explore the Concert II amp.

Lynxtrap wrote:I think the dumble comparison can be traced back to Carlton/Ford, maybe through misunderstandings. As far as I know, Carlton has used at least one of the "Rivera" Fenders, but I'm almost certain it was the Princeton. Ford has used the "Evil" and Red knob Twins from time to time, which are not even Rivera-era. On the other hand, with a knowledgable player behind the wheels, the Concert II is not miles away from D-territory IMHO.
Definitely heard the Larry Carlton comparison came from his own amp tech.
Good to know Robbin Ford likes Fender Red Knobbers.
I love Alvin Lee of Ten Years After, who also uses various Fender Red Knob amps.
Maybe, "not miles away" is the very reason Fender-II's are used to modify.
Also, I've read that ONLY the Concert-II and the Twin-Reverb-II amps
are THE amps to use for Dumblizing. Other Fender-II amps
are not as favored ~ from what I remember reading, anyway . . . .
Now, I cannot wait to hear sound clips from a Dumble. My interest is PEAKED :shock:

Lynxtrap wrote: While discussing these amps, does anyone
have a theory why the lead channel generally doesn't sound good?
What's wrong with the design?
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:48 am

Reeltarded wrote:Red knob Twin is one of my favorite amps, ever. Top 5 even.
Can you master volume distort down to bedroom volume levels :shock:
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:50 am

M Fowler wrote:
Reeltarded wrote:Red knob Twin is one of my favorite amps, ever. Top 5 even.
You say that about every amp eventually :)
Hey! Own It! Play It! Love It!
Then brag as all hell to raise market value :D
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? N

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:55 am

jaysg wrote:
Lynxtrap wrote:I think the dumble comparison can be traced back to Carlton/Ford, maybe through misunderstandings. As far as I know, Carlton has used at least one of the "Rivera" Fenders, but I'm almost certain it was the Princeton.
I wish I had saved the link...there's a youtube or two where Carlton is using a Twin Reverb II. I want to say it's into a Thiele 1-12", but I'm not sure on that. It sounds like Carlton...what can you say? Paul went on record at least once, explaining that they were going for/influenced by the Robben Ford guitar tones from the late 70's/early 80's. (often Dumble amps)

My C2 is set up as a high plate non-Skyliner, fwiw. When it was stock, I found the absolute best Ch.2 tones with an EV 15L in a front ported cab. The speaker was rolling off a lot of nastiness.

The architecture of the distortion channel leads me to believe that Paul had been into a Dumble or two. Before he went to Fender, he was doing a number of things to pull together a decent living. He did amp repairs, amp mods, pedal mods, his own line of pedals, worked for Mesa for month or two, designed a SS line for Yamaha, did rack switchers and pedal boards. Having a wholesale license, he also sold BBS rims.

JaySG. Have you seen the Paul Rivera documentary type interview?
It's in three parts, 20-30 minutes each. Discusses his pre-Fender history.
Very cool.

I'd love to know more about Bruce Zinky, as well.
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:01 am

Reeltarded wrote:Pi? You mean half of Tau? It's on.
Ever locate the middle of "Chi" when processing Zen? 8)
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:12 am

Bob S wrote:My understanding ...
"Phasing" of speakers is in regard to whether the cone pushes or pulls when a positive signal is applied.
With multiple speakers in one cabinet, this makes a difference.
You can check this with low voltage dc. Think battery.
If you mix speaker manufacturers it pays to check this out.
With all speakers in phase, the baffle board will add the desired effect.
Closed/Open/Ported cabs all have pros & cons.
I've never mixed speaker sizes in the same cab.
I'd think that the resonant frequency of each size will have an effect, if they are all mounted to the same baffle. My 2c - Good Luck with the quest. Bob

Thank you Bob. Your comments make a difference. I will have to re-think
my plan, as I do have a collection of older speakers I plan
to pull and swap and rotate speakers, manufacturers, sizes and ratings
within the speaker cabinets.
Maybe just keep it simple and have separate dedicate cabinets
as the market is full of them. Maybe your comments have saved
me tons of money and time and receiving a custom built cabinet
that will not work with any speaker combination. Thanks again :)
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Bob S » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:37 am

Just passing along the tips I got.
There are many here with a lot more speaker / cab experience than me.
The EVM12L & Celestion G12-65 are popular with the Dumble guys.
The possibilities are endless.
Like Pi
8)
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by brewdude » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:39 am

Didn't Gibson make some amps with 12" and 10" speakers in the same combo cabinet?

What about old 3-way home stereo speakers?

It seems that it should be possible to me. Perhaps you simply shouldn't mix certain individual speakers together. :?:

If it were me, I would most likely try 2 separate dissimilar cabs--say a 1x12" and a 2x10". I've seen bass players use combinations of speaker cabinets. However, it seems that the hard part would be getting the output levels to be balanced right. :?:

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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by Toppscore » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:16 am

brewdude wrote:Didn't Gibson make some amps with 12" and 10" speakers in the same combo cabinet?

What about old 3-way home stereo speakers?

It seems that it should be possible to me. Perhaps you simply shouldn't mix certain individual speakers together. :?:

If it were me, I would most likely try 2 separate dissimilar cabs--say a 1x12" and a 2x10". I've seen bass players use combinations of speaker cabinets. However, it seems that the hard part would be getting the output levels to be balanced right. :?:
Good points. I have seen 15"/12" and 12"/10" mixed speaker cabinets.

Question:
If I have a 100w 8ohm 12" speaker and a 100w 8ohm 10" speaker
and have both installed in the same cabinet,
are there other concerns if both are the same wattage and ohm specs?

Thanks for your response or any and all responses?
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by JazzGuitarGimp » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:37 am

Toppscore wrote:
brewdude wrote:Didn't Gibson make some amps with 12" and 10" speakers in the same combo cabinet?

What about old 3-way home stereo speakers?

It seems that it should be possible to me. Perhaps you simply shouldn't mix certain individual speakers together. :?:

If it were me, I would most likely try 2 separate dissimilar cabs--say a 1x12" and a 2x10". I've seen bass players use combinations of speaker cabinets. However, it seems that the hard part would be getting the output levels to be balanced right. :?:
Good points. I have seen 15"/12" and 12"/10" mixed speaker cabinets.

Question:
If I have a 100w 8ohm 12" speaker and a 100w 8ohm 10" speaker
and have both installed in the same cabinet,
are there other concerns if both are the same wattage and ohm specs?

Thanks for your response or any and all responses?
They should be close to the same Efficiency (also known as Sensitivity). Say, within a few dB. Otherwise, the more efficient speaker will be more dominant in the sonic mix. As an example, if you have one speaker with an Efficiency of 99dB and another with an Efficiency of 96dB, you have to apply double the power to the 96dB speaker to get the same volume level (SPL).
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by rdjones » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:17 am

Toppscore wrote:Thanks, Chad. However nice my highly modded Concert II and my blackfaced Reverb II do sound to me (and they output great tone), I'm more interested towards wondering what some Dumble experts may know about or may think about other amps being compared to Dumble. My guess is that those who do compare are discussing the sound and tone of potential Dumble clones. I may never see a Dumble, but will investigate Dumble clones and Dumble chassis kits.
Two Rock and Fuchs are the two that I read about most often being compared to Dumble, but I've never played through a real Dumble to be able to say.
I have played through every Rivera era Fender, own (or owed) several and have some experience recording with a stock '83 Concert 112.
(I was a Fender dealer during the Rivera era)
The official names for these amps are "Concert 112", "Concert 210", "Concert 410", and "Concert Top".
The "II" never appeared on any amp, in the catalog or on the schematic.
I can agree with numerous accounts that say the clean channel is great and that while the lead channel has plenty of gain the sound character is not inspiring.
I have no doubt that it's a good mod platform if done properly.
... rare 1964 6G6B Blackface Tuxedo Bassman w/Presence
. . . . . one of the last Blonde ~ Black-Tolex Bassman amps produced.
I'm not sure I know what "Tuxedo" means.
If it's a 6G6B it's not a Blackface, regardless of the color of the faceplate.
Technically it's a Blond or Brownface circuit in a black cabinet.
Are you sure the cabinet covering is original ?

rd

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rdjones
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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by rdjones » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:20 am

Toppscore wrote:Why did Bruce Zinky leave Fender?
Shows ya how much I know, I thought he was still there.

reddog

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Re: Paul Rivera Fender Concert-II compared to Dumble? YES? NO?

Post by ToneMerc » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:43 am

rdjones wrote: I'm not sure I know what "Tuxedo" means.
If it's a 6G6B it's not a Blackface, regardless of the color of the faceplate.
Technically it's a Blond or Brownface circuit in a black cabinet.
Are you sure the cabinet covering is original ?

rd
RD, it's slang for the transitional 6G6B blonde to 6G6B black faceplates , pre blackface circuit era models.You are right it's just cosmetic, 6G6B in different clothing.

6G6B circuit, black sans bright switch Bassman faceplate, white knobs, black tolex

http://s118.beta.photobucket.com/user/s ... %20Bassman

Taylor just made me a tan baffle for a tuxedo clone that I have planned.

TM

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