Turn 5E3 clone into a Deluxe Reverb?

[alfi27]

Hey guys,

I have a 5E3 clone on loan that I can buy for a really good price, handmade with an eyelet board and orange drops etc. Decent Hammond OT, 6.6k. So the thing is, I've been looking for a way to get really nice Fender clean without having to cash out a lot of money for an actual Fender amp - and while this amp has cool clean tones as it is, it breaks up too early for me and everything over 9-10 o'clock volume is pretty useless.

At first I looked at the Deluxe Reverb schematic, thinking I could just clone the normal channel and call it a day (not quite, but you get it). Then I did some more research, and it turns out that most people dislike that channel because it doesn't sound as good as the vibrato channel. Which is because the vibrato has an extra gain stage, and the 5E3 clone only having two preamp tubes I would obviously have to add another tube to get there.

So the question is this, are there any well known circuits that can get sublime clean tones from only two gain stages? One option is to clone the BE-50 Deluxe clean channel, which is based on the Friedman Buxom Betty and has really nice cleans from what I'm hearing. But it wouldn't be quite the same because the rest of the amp is all Marshall.

I'm afraid I might as well just add an extra tube and go all the way, as I'm a chronic tinkerer and won't settle for "almost there", though space is a bit of an issue. But if anyone has any advice, that would be really great!

[pompeiisneaks]

Hey guys,

I have a 5E3 clone on loan that I can buy for a really good price, handmade with an eyelet board and orange drops etc. Decent Hammond OT, 6.6k. So the thing is, I've been looking for a way to get really nice Fender clean without having to cash out a lot of money for an actual Fender amp - and while this amp has cool clean tones as it is, it breaks up too early for me and everything over 9-10 o'clock volume is pretty useless.

At first I looked at the Deluxe Reverb schematic, thinking I could just clone the normal channel and call it a day (not quite, but you get it). Then I did some more research, and it turns out that most people dislike that channel because it doesn't sound as good as the vibrato channel. Which is because the vibrato has an extra gain stage, and the 5E3 clone only having two preamp tubes I would obviously have to add another tube to get there.

So the question is this, are there any well known circuits that can get sublime clean tones from only two gain stages? One option is to clone the BE-50 Deluxe clean channel, which is based on the Friedman Buxom Betty and has really nice cleans from what I'm hearing. But it wouldn't be quite the same because the rest of the amp is all Marshall.

I'm afraid I might as well just add an extra tube and go all the way, as I'm a chronic tinkerer and won't settle for "almost there", though space is a bit of an issue. But if anyone has any advice, that would be really great!

You could go the route of the Tweedle Dee Deluxe mods to make it a bit cleaner, but still go to mean as well. that's one of the limiting factors of the older tweeds, they weren't really meant to be played at max volume, because they didn't need as much clean volume back then. The blackface and silverface amps got cleaner as they went along. The amp may not have enough power for that one more tube you're mentioning, but you'd need to lookup the specs of the heater current capacity. If it's at max already, then I'd not add another.

~Phil

[martin manning]

Unlike a 5E3, a Deluxe Reverb has reverb and tremolo, and I'm assuming that you don't want any of that.

Dumble clean tone is fantastic, and a clean channel-only ODS preamp only needs two 12AX7's (two gain stages and a LTP phase inverter). Adding a 2x 6V6GT power amp with fixed bias would make a nice 20W NODS (No-Overdrive Special). You would basically have to gut this 5E3 clone, though. The power transformer probably doesn't have a bias tap, but you could work around that. It probably doesn't have nearly the right control layout, and if it is in a Tweed-type chassis, they are very tight inside.

[didit]

Hello -

Assuming power transformer is capable of handling an additional filament and perhaps a bit more HT current you can convert to solid state rectification, move 6V6s over and use a 6SL7 for LTP PI. That then allows both 12A_7 sockets to be purposed as you see fit. Lot's of options with four pre-amp triodes. If you're willing to use cathodyne PI there's one more, and that gets you almost to a Princeton Reverb. See Rob Robinette for good thoughts on that design & improving on it. However, as noted already it's a small & fairly stuffed chassis even stock 5E3.

Best .. Ian

[alfi27]

[/quote]

You could go the route of the Tweedle Dee Deluxe mods to make it a bit cleaner, but still go to mean as well. that's one of the limiting factors of the older tweeds, they weren't really meant to be played at max volume, because they didn't need as much clean volume back then. The blackface and silverface amps got cleaner as they went along. The amp may not have enough power for that one more tube you're mentioning, but you'd need to lookup the specs of the heater current capacity. If it's at max already, then I'd not add another.

~Phil

Yeah I googled a bit more and the 5E3 is a really popular mod platform indeed. Stumbled upon this video and it sounds really really good. The Tweedle Dee Deluxe might be the easiest mod, as I'll be able to retain the original topology and it will look like a stock 5E3. How easy is it to add more eyelets to an eyelet board? It sounds really sick as well in this video!

Unlike a 5E3, a Deluxe Reverb has reverb and tremolo, and I'm assuming that you don't want any of that.

Dumble clean tone is fantastic, and a clean channel-only ODS preamp only needs two 12AX7's (two gain stages and a LTP phase inverter). Adding a 2x 6V6GT power amp with fixed bias would make a nice 20W NODS (No-Overdrive Special). You would basically have to gut this 5E3 clone, though. The power transformer probably doesn't have a bias tap, but you could work around that. It probably doesn't have nearly the right control layout, and if it is in a Tweed-type chassis, they are very tight inside.

That's correct, I'll buy a Strymon Flint or something if I need really good reverb and trem. Close enough anyway. The Dumble idea is not bad, the amp has 4 inputs and a fuse on the front that could probably be put to better use, if necessary. Do you have any schems for it?

Hello -

Assuming power transformer is capable of handling an additional filament and perhaps a bit more HT current you can convert to solid state rectification, move 6V6s over and use a 6SL7 for LTP PI. That then allows both 12A_7 sockets to be purposed as you see fit. Lot's of options with four pre-amp triodes. If you're willing to use cathodyne PI there's one more, and that gets you almost to a Princeton Reverb. See Rob Robinette for good thoughts on that design & improving on it. However, as noted already it's a small & fairly stuffed chassis even stock 5E3.

Best .. Ian

Interesting idea that as well, I might try that if some of the less invasive mods won't do do the trick. Rob Robinette is a really good source for the 5E3 mods indeed, very interesting stuff.

[10thTx]

Have you tried a 5751 in V1 or a 12AY7? Have you considered a 12AT7 for V2. OR …..Have you considered a 12DW7 or reverse 12DW7 for V2? (12AX7/12AU7 or 12AU7/12AX7) Does the PT have enough ma current handling to use 6L6's or 5881's? Lowering the gain in the preamp tubes and increasing the power tubes to 5881/6L6 may get you all the cleans you want and still have great volume available.

IF you have those tubes available, it might be worth trying those before changing the wiring and other components on the amp.

With respect, 10thtx

[martin manning]

Dumble ODS schematic: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 006#p55006

[norburybrook]

or this

https://robrobinette.com/RR763_BLACKVIBE.htm


Adding Rob's NFB makes a big difference to the clean /OD levels on the 5E3. That's a quick mod that you can do to try first.




M

[didit]

Marcus' basic suggestion seems most sound.

If tasked to build now based on this approach, my plan would be:

• forego a tube rectifier
• build silicon rectification & the bias circuit on a board that bolts vertically on the chassis end-face
• using the open hole, mount a healthy sized "can" capacitor to free up some space on main circuit board
• add necessary BFDR choke
• perhaps forego a mid control and just use volume, treble, bass plus a bright switch

And otherwise follow designs as provided BlackVibe though perhaps with component values and tweaks from Dumble ODS clean.

Best .. Ian

[pullshocks]

Another possibility that might be a relatively easy mod for your 5E3 with no additional tubes: The Divided by 13 CJ-11 is pretty great sounding 5-E3 variant with a black face tone stack. There are a bunch of demos on youtube.

It keeps the tube rectifier, cathode bias 6V6 power amp and cathodyne PI but with a 3 triode preamp. One of the cathode bypass caps is switchable for a very useful boost. It also adds a master volume.The schematic can be found here:
https://freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?t=8769
Don't let the cold biased preamp stages scare you off. It sounds good.

[telentubes]

I haven't taken the time to look at 5E3 topology, but the Dumble Small Special came to mind. 2 X 12AX7s plus 2 X power tubes. Nice sounding amps and pretty simple for a Dumble. You might be able to use what you have to get one of those.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... al#p380747

[Doug R.]

If you only desire more clean headroom, you might try adding NFB to your circuit first. This is quite easy to try before scrapping the entire circuit and starting over.

[norburybrook]

I'll add that if you're thinking of making a separate head and cab then having a tone stack will help with the amount of bass these amps produce in standard form. In a small combo it's not a problem, or if you have a mic on it in the studio again no problem but if you're playing live with a decent 1x12 for example the bottom end can be too much if you're on the neck pickup.I have a switchable cap on my 'mic' channel that cuts bass and works well but I'm thinking of adding a t and B to my amp for this reason, just need to work out how logistically


M

[jaysg]

OP -- is that Hammond a clone for the 5e3? Iirc, those are not interleaved, but a Deluxe Reverb OT is interleaved. Either you have the wrong OT for a tweed deluxe or the wrong one for a DR.

[pamaz67]

I would suggest to look also at the carmen ghia from dr z. You can get very good cleans from it and this schematic will comply with your requirements in term of preamp stages. Furthermore, with just a 3 position switch you can dial different tone behaviours, that will give a different signature to the sound. I would give it a try. it's such a basic a circuit that could be surprising how good it can be.