Dumbleator - Bright cap on or off?

[odourboy]

Sort of a poll I guess....

I've built a few dumbleator loops and and I've never been completely happy with the way the recovery side attenuates the highs (in particular when I'm on the clean side), so I've ended up using the bright cap to recover the highs. My concern is that I'm loosing the benefit of taming the highs on the OD side that the dumbleator provides our tone experts like Dogears et al.

So, the question is: who's using or not using a bright cap in there loop and if not, are you doing anything to keep the clean channel bright and chimey?

[Tonegeek]

Sort of a poll I guess....

I've built a few dumbleator loops and and I've never been completely happy with the way the recovery side attenuates the highs (in particular when I'm on the clean side), so I've ended up using the bright cap to recover the highs. My concern is that I'm loosing the benefit of taming the highs on the OD side that the dumbleator provides our tone experts like Dogears et al.

So, the question is: who's using or not using a bright cap in there loop and if not, are you doing anything to keep the clean channel bright and chimey?

I hear ya. I fought with that for a while and just gave up. Even in OD, the loop extracts a price but what it gives back is worth it. I do like that extra high end in OD that the loop steals, as it seems to make the notes a bit clearer, but I learned to live with out it. I don't use my clean channel much so its not a heart breaker. So the answer is no bright caps for me. If you have a clean master as in a HRM, you can wire the relay to kick in a bright cap over the clean master on the clean side and take it out when you go to OD.

[butwhatif]

never

[Max]

Sort of a poll I guess....

I've built a few dumbleator loops and and I've never been completely happy with the way the recovery side attenuates the highs (in particular when I'm on the clean side), so I've ended up using the bright cap to recover the highs. My concern is that I'm loosing the benefit of taming the highs on the OD side that the dumbleator provides our tone experts like Dogears et al.

So, the question is: who's using or not using a bright cap in there loop and if not, are you doing anything to keep the clean channel bright and chimey?

Let me try an answer, even though I am no "tone expert":

I think your problem may perhaps arise as the result of a misconception of the purpose of a Dumblelator. AFAIK the Dumblelator was designed by Alexander Dumble to inhibit all sorts of deterioration of the tone of his amps, that perhaps could occur with an outboard effect in the loop of one of his amps.

But AFAIK its intended purpose is not to "improve" the tone of one of his amps on its own and without an effect in its loop by "taming highs" for an example. If one of his customers should have felt a need to improve the tone of his amp, by "taming highs" for an example, AFAIK Alexander Dumble would have accomplished this by some modification(s) of the circuit of the amp itself and not by recommending the use of a Dumblelator.

So I would recommend that you build an amp that you like in its clean and its OD mode without the Dumblelator. Then build a Dumblelator and use some kind of shielded cables which you like both - Dumblelator and cables - in combination with this amp and your outboard effects, and the problem will perhaps be solved.

Cheers,

Max

[glasman]

A trick that helps to clean up the high end response for d-lator is to use a 12AT7 and rebias the tube (cathode resistor values).

It does reduce the gain a bit but it extends the high end range well beyond the range of the 12AX7.

Really depends and if you want a transparent loop or you want the loop to tone shape the amp that it is connected to.

Gary

[odourboy]

Really depends and if you want a transparent loop or you want the loop to tone shape the amp that it is connected to.

Gary

Therein lays the question Gary. I can build a transparent loop, and as Max says, I should be. Yet I hear fabulous clips of your amps and Brandon's where loops and cable lengths are being used to shape tone. So I'm trying to determine if those great OD tones are created with or without a bright cap to recover the highs.

[dogears]

For me, the grail standard tones were achieved with the Dumbleator/Amp as a system. Although I agree with Max to some extent, I also know for a fact that in some cases the end response was acheived with a mixture of cables and master bright caps.

So, the comment that Alexander would tame highs in the amp and not via cabling is not accurate. Robben's amp is proof. In fact, RFs amp is unplayable without the loop and cables.

I find that a relay switched bright switch for cleans only can restore the chime and airy cleans even when using the loop and cables ala RF. The OD, through a combination of snubber values, master bright cap, and careful loop tube selection, is not impeded or overly dark at all.

All IMHO of course (just the last paragraph)

[Max]

So, the comment that Alexander would tame highs in the amp and not via cabling is not accurate. Robben's amp is proof. In fact, RFs amp is unplayable without the loop and cables.

Hi Scott,

hope you are well and have a great time. Concerning this topic:

Are you really 100% sure (sure in the sense of "fact" and not "assumption") from what Robben Ford himself or Daved has told you,

- that Robben really thinks and tells himself, that his amp is "unplayable" without a Dumblelator? Or couldn't it be, that it is unplayable only for other guitar players (what would not be very surprising as it is custom built for him and not for other players)?

- that he uses his "loop setup" in the studio, too (AFAIK very unusual for studio recordings). Or don't you like his tone on his studio records?

- that Robben really uses the Dumblelator because he doesn't like the tone of his Dumble without it?

- that Robben doesn't simply use the Dumblelator just for its intended purpose, that AFAIK is to inhibit any degradation of tone quality that could perhaps occur when he uses the TC without the Dumblelator?

And what about the famous current Dumble players that don't use a Dumblelator, like Larry Carlton as an example. All without a "grail tone" in your opinion?

And if a Dumblelator really would be that urgently needed to get the "grail tone", as you seem to think - how then could you expalain, that - based on the obvious rarity of an original Dumblelator on the "second hand market" ("It’s been 4 years since our last Dumbleator." http://www.maverick-music.com/scripts/v ... oduct=1954) - at least 200 of his customers did not order a Dumblelator?

Nearly all the Dumble amps that have been sold by the more famous recording artists in the last 25 years (Wilson, Farris, Rios, Sharp, Vito, Lukather, Lindley, to name only a few of them) have been sold without a Dumblelator, because they did not use one. And all these without a "grail tone", too, in your opinion?

If you get your personal "grail tone" with a Dumblelator, then of course you should use one, that is out of question of course. And this here www.scottlernermusic.com/2010/ojcen320x2.mp3 shows, how happy you are and how much fun you have with your gear and setup and what great music results from your fun and inspiration. But don't you think that Alexander Dumble is right, when he says:

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands or millions, of valid guitar tones. When the air becomes electric, that's the right sound, no matter what the one is. It's that sound exciting the senses."
(Guitar Player Magazine - September 1985)

And don't take me wrong - you have all my sympathy and respect - as the person you are and as the musician you are.

All the best and have a great weekend,

Max

[Structo]

Brian, when I first built my D'lator it totally killed my highs.
First I found the cable I was using to and from my pedal board was way too high in capacitance.

So I replaced that with better cable but there was still too much attenuation of highs from the loop.
I know because I installed a bypass switch to compare the tone with and without the loop.

Finally, I started experimenting with the resistor value on the grid resistor/cap network feeding the return grid.
I can't remember the exact value I ended up with but try a 100K first, then go to 75K if you want it brighter.
I left the same 500pf bypass cap on it.
It really made a huge difference for me.
And credit goes to the forum because I posted about this same problem and was told to play with that resistor value.

Oh and I have a 47pf bright cap on my master.

[odourboy]

Tom,

I'll re-iterate that I know how to make my Dumbleator function so that it retains the highs - my question is more of a philosophical one - how 'should' I be using it and what are other people doing?

Great info and interesting discussion so far... thanks!!

[Structo]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood your question.

[Bob-I]

I put a right switch on both sides like the schem shows. The .001uF on the driver side was way too much, I lowered it to 470pF and it's still pretty brittle. I like the recovery side bright cap for the clean, but OD is better with nothing.

[Structo]

Yeah, I don't get that .001uF bright cap.

That was way too huge to be useful. Maybe someones idea of a practical joke.
I lowered mine too.

[dogears]

Well, you can use Robben's amp with no Dumbleator if you turn the master to at least noon-1 oclock. You could do this in the studio and things would probably sound great. Or, maybe he puts a cable in the in/out jacks.

Lot sof my fave RF recordings sound like they printed with the TC2290 in there so maybe he had the loop in?

I can say that teh amp is crazy bright and pretty much unplayable unless the master is up so high as to negate the large bright cap. So you not feel the bright cap is that large because of the loop??

I agree about the multitude of different great tones btw! I just know what I like....

So, the comment that Alexander would tame highs in the amp and not via cabling is not accurate. Robben's amp is proof. In fact, RFs amp is unplayable without the loop and cables.

Hi Scott,

hope you are well and have a great time. Concerning this topic:

Are you really 100% sure (sure in the sense of "fact" and not "assumption") from what Robben Ford himself or Daved has told you,

- that Robben really thinks and tells himself, that his amp is "unplayable" without a Dumblelator? Or couldn't it be, that it is unplayable only for other guitar players (what would not be very surprising as it is custom built for him and not for other players)?

- that he uses his "loop setup" in the studio, too (AFAIK very unusual for studio recordings). Or don't you like his tone on his studio records?

- that Robben really uses the Dumblelator because he doesn't like the tone of his Dumble without it?

- that Robben doesn't simply use the Dumblelator just for its intended purpose, that AFAIK is to inhibit any degradation of tone quality that could perhaps occur when he uses the TC without the Dumblelator?

And what about the famous current Dumble players that don't use a Dumblelator, like Larry Carlton as an example. All without a "grail tone" in your opinion?

And if a Dumblelator really would be that urgently needed to get the "grail tone", as you seem to think - how then could you expalain, that - based on the obvious rarity of an original Dumblelator on the "second hand market" ("It’s been 4 years since our last Dumbleator." http://www.maverick-music.com/scripts/v ... oduct=1954) - at least 200 of his customers did not order a Dumblelator?

Nearly all the Dumble amps that have been sold by the more famous recording artists in the last 25 years (Wilson, Farris, Rios, Sharp, Vito, Lukather, Lindley, to name only a few of them) have been sold without a Dumblelator, because they did not use one. And all these without a "grail tone", too, in your opinion?

If you get your personal "grail tone" with a Dumblelator, then of course you should use one, that is out of question of course. And this here www.scottlernermusic.com/2010/ojcen320x2.mp3 shows, how happy you are and how much fun you have with your gear and setup and what great music results from your fun and inspiration. But don't you think that Alexander Dumble is right, when he says:

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands or millions, of valid guitar tones. When the air becomes electric, that's the right sound, no matter what the one is. It's that sound exciting the senses."
(Guitar Player Magazine - September 1985)

And don't take me wrong - you have all my sympathy and respect - as the person you are and as the musician you are.

All the best and have a great weekend,

Max

[bluesfendermanblues]

I like the sound of a D-style amp with Dumblelator - in OD mode, only.
In the clean channel - for Twin like cleans - Like many of you, I think it tends to dull the sound too much.

The solution has been to run the (built in) dumblelator in parallel mode, which doesn't take of highs, because to no extra cable in the signal path.
And paying a little more special attention to the OD channel.

In order to have less highs in OD, I have a 1n (0.001uf) capacitor with a 150k fixed resistor across the OD master pot.....I guess upping the second snubber to 800pf-1000pf provides the same result.

This cap, at least to my old ears, tends to shave of the same amount of highs off as having a couple of 180-200pf cables in the loop.

I don't like using a bright cap on the master. And I feel my amp sounds great on whisper levels as well as on full bore.

There is a nice side effect of running the dumblelator in parallel, which is the fact that the quality of the effects devices becomes less inportant. I use pedals or an old SE70 etc. no real notisable change in quality.