On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

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Max
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:08 pm

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

talbany wrote:Max
First off I really kinda dug the grooves..Thanks for posting!.. That Lucy's got soul huh!!..
Hi Tony,

hope you are well! I will forward your compliments to Lucy.
The Solo part mp3 you posted I have to say has that 70's Classic stack kinda vibe (from what I can tell from the clip)..
Tony, I agree, such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone could perhaps be achieved by playing one of the "transition generation" "low plate classic" Dumble style amps (BTW: the first of these "transition generation" "low plate classic" amps have been built in '79, but most of them in '80 and '81 AFAIK). Or did I misunderstand you and you are talking about the 70's "pre-classic" amps (1st, 2nd and 3rd generation)?

But do you think that one of these "transition generation" "low plate classic" Dumble style amps would be the only kind of guitar amp that could be used to achieve such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone? Or do you think such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone could perhaps be achieved with a Boogie, Jim Kelly, Marshall, Fender, VVT, or perhaps with some other kind and generation of Dumble style amp (pre-classic, skyline, SSS, Dumbleland etc.) or an Axe-Fx Ultra (only to name some other amps / modelling devices), too?

Thanks a lot for chiming in!

All the best,

Max
markusw
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Location: Vienna/Austria

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by markusw »

Max wrote: Hi Markus,

here's an instructional video: http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Use-th ... -264604793 Does this answer your question?
Hi Max,

thanks for the link! :D
It gives a good impression how the Spreader sounds!

I will try to describe why I prefer the sound of one clip over the other in more detail. Please keep in mind that usually I can just tell you if I like a wine or not :wink:

I believe it's hard to compare only the sounds. I suppose "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" was done in a professional recording setting. Peter Lerche used it seems at least 4 mics for his recording, don't know about Tag's clip.
So I fear for me it's just possible to compare the overall sum of amp(+guitar) sound/recording/mixing mastering etc.....

When I listened to the "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" solo again yesterday evening I couldn't think about anything I wanted the sound to be different in the context of the song.
I believe I was biased towards Peter's clip for several reasons:
a) it was the first "Dumble clip" that the really impressed me. I like Peter's clip because for me it has the right treble content (which I miss in other clips; hm, maybe I'm slightly deaf already?). It's probably also slightly dirtier (at least in some parts) than other clips. I like the texture of the OD.
b) Generally, I probably like the OD a bit less smooth (a bit more aggressive) than others here. Therefore, initially I thought the the solo sound on "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" would be better if it was a bit dirtier. Now I don't think it would be better.
c) Likely also because I know that Peter played a Dumble.

Regarding Tag's clip: I'm pretty sure I would like it a lot better if it was recorded in a more professional setup (no offense intended). Besides, as already mentioned, for me there is way too much delay/reverb, for me it also sounds too dull (again no offense intended; maybe I'm really slightly deaf? :wink: ).

Take care,

Markus
talbany
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Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by talbany »

Tony, I agree, such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone could perhaps be achieved by playing one of the "transition generation" "low plate classic" Dumble style amps (BTW: the first of these "transition generation" "low plate classic" amps have been built in '79, but most of them in '80 and '81 AFAIK). Or did I misunderstand you and you are talking about the 70's "pre-classic" amps (1st, 2nd and 3rd generation)?
Max
I agree also, that tone would be more indicative of the transition later 80's ... The proof for me would have to be in the focused mid range character as well as openness and articulation touch sensitive quality that to me defines that era.. The earlier 1'st and 2n'd generation amps had that quality as well but for me took on a more raw edge and a slightly different quality of breakup where the later 80's had a sort of refined smoother transition into grind..That solo to me definitely had more of that quality to my ears..
For me clips (although this is a pretty good one) can be fairly deceiving especially layered with several effects like this one so an amp that might sound a certain way sitting on the floor could sound much different at the other end of a recording so things like treble middle bass content can deliver a bit of a lie!!..I will say that quantity of midrange being the most prevalent or obvious being as that's where the guitar lives..
Things clips do reveal well are break up quality or quantity, note bloom, sustain ability, and once again quality of midrange..
These are the qualities I am hearing in the clip that I think share the same as the Dumble of that generation and the so called Dumble tone in general..


But do you think that one of these "transition generation" "low plate classic" Dumble style amps would be the only kind of guitar amp that could be used to achieve such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone? Or do you think such a kind of recorded lead guitar tone could perhaps be achieved with a Boogie, Jim Kelly, Marshall, Fender, VVT, or perhaps with some other kind and generation of Dumble style amp (pre-classic, skyline, SSS, Dumbleland etc.) or an Axe-Fx Ultra (only to name some other amps / modelling devices), too?
I suppose with a good engineer one could pull off some pretty deceiving tones especially with some good modeling software in the hands of someone who knows how to use it so I am just reacting to an off the cuff generalization here and how I perceive the sound in a first impression..
If the tone generator he used was an amp and recorded fairly flat and was a good representation of how the amp really sounds in the studio I would put that tone more in the Dumble camp than a Fender or Marshall..(The midrange here is the most powerful clue for me)I would however say that given the smoothness of the breakup I wouldn't be surprised if it were a DL or SSS as I did notice a hint of the velvet glove quality if you know what I mean..

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Max
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:08 pm

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

talbany wrote:Things clips do reveal well are break up quality or quantity, note bloom, sustain ability, and once again quality of midrange..
These are the qualities I am hearing in the clip that I think share the same as the Dumble of that generation and the so called Dumble tone in general..

I suppose with a good engineer one could pull off some pretty deceiving tones especially with some good modeling software in the hands of someone who knows how to use it so I am just reacting to an off the cuff generalization here and how I perceive the sound in a first impression..
If the tone generator he used was an amp and recorded fairly flat and was a good representation of how the amp really sounds in the studio I would put that tone more in the Dumble camp than a Fender or Marshall..(The midrange here is the most powerful clue for me)I would however say that given the smoothness of the breakup I wouldn't be surprised if it were a DL or SSS as I did notice a hint of the velvet glove quality if you know what I mean..
Hi Tony,

I think that I understand what you are talking about. So if I got you right, your first impression regarding a possible solution for my "riddle" is this:

If it isn’t a very excellent modelling device – what you think would perhaps be possible - it will most probably be a Dumble style amp and most probably a transition or 4th generation "classic" ODS with either a low plate or a high plate configuration. But – perhaps not that probable but at least possible - it could be a SSS or a Dumbleland, too.

Let’s try if your picture will become still clearer if we extent the "database":

"Signal chain": Stock Fender Stratocaster with stock Fender single coil pickups > Monster Studio Pro 1000 > amp or modelling device with some kind of power amp > cabinet > Sennheiser MD 421 N > Telefunken TAB V76 > Mytek 8x192 > Logic 9

I have attached two more solo tracks from the song "Pighunt". The only differences regarding the "signal chain" that was used for these two "Pighunt" solo tracks and the "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" solo track are differences in the setup of the amp /modelling device.

The amount of effects on the "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" and "Pighunt" guitar tracks is less than 10%.

Tony thanks a lot again for your perspectives, very interesting and very educational!

Have a nice day and take care,

Max
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Max
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Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

markusw wrote:Generally, I probably like the OD a bit less smooth (a bit more aggressive) than others here. Therefore, initially I thought the the solo sound on "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" would be better if it was a bit dirtier. Now I don't think it would be better.
Hi Markus,

I understand. To my previous post I’ve attached two solo tracks of the song "Pighunt" recorded with exactly the same equipment as "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns". Is the tone of these "Pighunt" tracks a bit more close to your personal taste or less close?

And do you think that the guitar tone for these "Pighunt" tracks is as well chosen as you think the one for "Bridge Of 1000 Autumns" has been - again taking into account the musical context of "Pighunt"?

I have attached here a larger section of "Pighunt" so that you can get a better overall impression of this song.

Thanks again and a nice weekend,

Max
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markusw
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Location: Vienna/Austria

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by markusw »

Hi Max,

thanks a lot for posting the new clips! :)
This quite challenging for me. So far I never thought too much about why I prefer one sound over another.

I clearly prefer the "1000 Autumns" sound but I think the "Pighunt" sound fits to its musical context. However, it might be that I would prefer "Pighunt" with the "Autumns" sound. Hard to say.
For my taste the solo parts in "Pighunt" could be a bit more dominant in the mix though. Might be that this influences my preference for the "1000 Autumns" sound.
I really tried to figure out why I prefer the "Autumns" sound over the" Pighunt" sound. Listened to the clips a lot of times. No real conclusion so far. Sorry.
Edit: will listen to the clips again in a couple of days with fresh ears....

Have a nice sunday!

Regards,

Markus
Max
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Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

markusw wrote: will listen to the clips again in a couple of days with fresh ears....
Hi Markus,

of course, there's no hurry at all.

Have a great time and take care,

Max
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67plexi
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Location: Juneau Alaska

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by 67plexi »

Good one Max.
My old ears tell me no amp just a Eventide + Stratocaster.

best regards, steve.
markusw
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Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by markusw »

markusw wrote: Edit: will listen to the clips again in a couple of days with fresh ears....
Hey Max,

I listened to the clips again now with a couple of days of abstinence.
Unfortunately, I still have a hard time analysing why I prefer the "1000 Autumns" sound. Seems I have to learn a lot about describing sounds (and also wines :wink: ).
It's still my impression that the "Autumns" sound cuts better through the mix. This of course may be an easy explanation for my preference.
You don't happen to have a chance to add a couple of dB to the guitar track(s) of "Pighunt" ? :wink:

I already asked this question in the "Reference" thread: may I assume that for "Autumns" and "Pighunt" the same amp was used as for "6000"?
BTW, I also prefer the "6000"s lead sound over the solo "Pighunt" sound.
Does this make any sense?


All the best,

Markus
Max
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Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

Hi Markus,

thanks a lot again for your perspective. I understand that you would prefer the guitar to be a bit more prominent in the "Pighunt " mix. I'll ask Charly and report.
markusw wrote:may I assume that for "Autumns" and "Pighunt" the same amp was used as for "6000"?
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483

What do you think based on what you hear?

Take care,

Max
markusw
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Location: Vienna/Austria

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by markusw »

Max wrote:
What do you think based on what you hear?
Hey Max,

based on what I hear my guess would be that for "6000" and "Autumns" the same amp was used. Couldn't say for "Pighunt".
However, since you mentioned that for "Autumns" and"Pighunt" the same amp was used I think that for all three a 2nd generation "pre-classic" Dumble ODS 50W was used :wink:

Have a nice day!

Markus
Max
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Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:08 pm

Re: On special request: "The Blinded Chinese Rap"

Post by Max »

markusw wrote:based on what I hear my guess would be that for "6000" and "Autumns" the same amp was used. Couldn't say for "Pighunt".
However, since you mentioned that for "Autumns" and"Pighunt" the same amp was used I think that for all three a 2nd generation "pre-classic" Dumble ODS 50W was used :wink:
Yep! As I said: the organ between the ears is a big help!

OK, because the riddle has been solved I think some kind of award would be well-deserved. So here now is the phone number where you can order such a 2nd generation "pre-classic" ODS. The only thing you now need in addition to get your own 2nd generation ODS for only $1,332.00 is this: http://www.deloreantimemachine.com/

All the best and have fun!

Max

picture source: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... stcount=35
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