Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

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NickC
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by NickC »

rp wrote:Sorry guys, you need to broaden your world. The early OC Quartet albums on Atlantic are some of the most beautiful music ever made. Maybe should start with Shape Of... or Change Of... This is Our... Rather than Free Jazz which is the most famous. Funny, after all that came after this stuff seems rather melodic and mellow, certainly not difficult music, at least in 2014.

I remember reading in a Guitar Player interview with Becker and Fagen when asked who they'd like most to play with answered Charlie Parker - assuming you could play with a dead musician. Had Parker been 20 years old in 1960 he'd have been OC. Styles ain't mutually exclusive.

If it were up to me only Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor in your stockings next Christmas. You'd have to decide if it was intended as candy or coal.

Indeed, the early stuff by Ornette Coleman is a different animal altogether than the freeform stuff I alluded to (and should have stated more explicitly). That album Ornette Coleman and Pat Metheny did together, was to my ear absolutely atrocious. I tried to like it. I really did. But no way, it just ain't my cup-of-tea.

Coleman & Metheny - Project X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no4nepUkn94

Bird and Dizzie are fabulous. But my favorite horn player of all time is Paul Desmond (Dave Brubeck Quartet). Sublime and beautiful lines!

Desmond - Darn That Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rTOg92wCk
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martin manning
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

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talbany
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by talbany »

rp wrote:Sorry guys, you need to broaden your world. The early OC Quartet albums on Atlantic are some of the most beautiful music ever made. Maybe should start with Shape Of... or Change Of... This is Our... Rather than Free Jazz which is the most famous. Funny, after all that came after this stuff seems rather melodic and mellow, certainly not difficult music, at least in 2014.

I remember reading in a Guitar Player interview with Becker and Fagen when asked who they'd like most to play with answered Charlie Parker - assuming you could play with a dead musician. Had Parker been 20 years old in 1960 he'd have been OC. Styles ain't mutually exclusive.

If it were up to me only Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor in your stockings next Christmas. You'd have to decide if it was intended as candy or coal.
Interesting that Becker and Fagan picked one of the all time greatest improv artists of all time, and they showed virtually no evidence of any improv takes in there studio work..Bird was rather known for not wanting to do many takes in his session work (not that he had too!) I would imagine him not lasting very long in an SD session..Amazing to me how he was able to compose and perform at such a high level under the influence of heavy narcotic use...

HUGE BIRD FAN!!

Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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NickC
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

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Teleguy61
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by Teleguy61 »

Top line, I love music and I love music discussions.

Let's be careful not to confuse the objective and the subjective here.
Ornette Coleman cannot be faulted as a musician-an extremely talented player.
Whether or not you like it his music is something else.
Same with SD. One cannot fault the quality of the material, the performance or the production. All of those are excellent.
It's just whether you like it.
Take the Beatles just as an example-the material, performance and production are all excellent, I happen to find the end product more to my liking.
Also as an example, Aretha in Muscle Shoals, same deal--the material, performance and production are all excellent.

Bottom line, I love music. But I love some more than others.
Keep it coming.
vibratoking
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by vibratoking »

Sorry guys, but no improv? SD's music has some of the greatest improve guitar solos of all time.
talbany
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

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vibratoking wrote:Sorry guys, but no improv? SD's music has some of the greatest improve guitar solos of all time.
When I refer to improv I relate that to the more traditional uses of improv ( What Bird was known and jazz music in general) that played a much larger role in the body of the song than just short 30 sec solo break found in the more radio friendly songs we hear..I am not taking anything away from the some of the wonderful solos in SD's studio work..I don't know how much of those solos were actually improved on the spot and how many needed to be crafted and edited.. I know in talking with Rick Derringer that he would have to try quite a few different ways of approaching a song or solo in some of those SD sessions before they were happy or even considered it for a master track..I also remember him mentioning that they had a difficult time in those early days doing some live shows since so many different players played on those sessions to find 1 guy to cover all those styles and sounds..Anyway it's just my interpretation of what real improv is..That's all

BTW..Ricky don't loose that number was in reference to Rick Derringer

Tony
Last edited by talbany on Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:05 am, edited 7 times in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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NickC
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by NickC »

Teleguy61 wrote:Top line, I love music and I love music discussions.

Let's be careful not to confuse the objective and the subjective here.
Ornette Coleman cannot be faulted as a musician-an extremely talented player.
Whether or not you like it his music is something else.
...........
Agree 100%. To play that far out, whether it be Ornette Coleman or Grateful Dead, does require an advanced skill set. In the case of Coleman, it is extremely highly developed. I do not fault him as a musician, nor Pat Metheny, who I greatly admire. I was only expressing a subjective opinion of dislike of some of their work. I respect them both, but that album they did together isn't my cup-of-tea at all.
Teleguy61
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by Teleguy61 »

NickC wrote:
Teleguy61 wrote:Top line, I love music and I love music discussions.

Let's be careful not to confuse the objective and the subjective here.
Ornette Coleman cannot be faulted as a musician-an extremely talented player.
Whether or not you like it his music is something else.
...........
Agree 100%. To play that far out, whether it be Ornette Coleman or Grateful Dead, does require an advanced skill set. In the case of Coleman, it is extremely highly developed. I do not fault him as a musician, nor Pat Metheny, who I greatly admire. I was only expressing a subjective opinion of dislike of some of their work. I respect them both, but that album they did together isn't my cup-of-tea at all.
No prob of course.
tubeswell
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by tubeswell »

I had the Royal Scam and Aja back when they were first put out. Excellent albums - thrashed 'em.
He who dies with the most tubes... wins
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martin manning
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by martin manning »

talbany wrote:
vibratoking wrote:Sorry guys, but no improv? SD's music has some of the greatest improve guitar solos of all time.
When I refer to improv I relate that to the more traditional uses of improv ( What Bird was known and jazz music in general) that played a much larger role in the body of the song than just short 30 sec solo break found in the more radio friendly songs we hear..I am not taking anything away from the some of the wonderful solos in SD's studio work..I don't know how much of those solos were actually improved on the spot and how many needed to be crafted and edited.. I know in talking with Rick Derringer that he would have to try quite a few different ways of approaching a song or solo in some of those SD sessions before they were happy or even considered it for a master track..I also remember him mentioning that they had a difficult time in those early days doing some live shows since so many different players played on those sessions to find 1 guy to cover all those styles and sounds..Anyway it's just my interpretation of what real improv is..That's all

BTW..Ricky don't loose that number was in reference to Rick Derringer

Tony
Tony, check out Becker's solo playing in the live "Josie" linked just above by Nick C., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54dNhJjgg , and for a different third-party claim to the inspiration for "Rickki Don't Lose That Number," see in the EW article I linked on pg. 1. The spelling of the name Rikki (Ducornet) is the same, anyway- here's a direct link, 4th paragraph: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1174152_3,00.html
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skyboltone
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by skyboltone »

talbany wrote:
vibratoking wrote: BTW..Ricky don't loose that number was in reference to Rick Derringer

Tony
No it wasn't. <snip, snip, snip>

Whoops, I guess I should read through the new posts before blathering on. Just read Martin's post above.
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by Leo_Gnardo »

rp wrote:If it were up to me only Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor in your stockings next Christmas. You'd have to decide if it was intended as candy or coal.
Ooh yeah I'll take the Braxton! My friends turned me on to the Montreux/Berlin concert LP's mid 70's, then I got to mix monitors for him one show in SF, 1982.
down technical blind alleys . . .
talbany
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by talbany »

martin manning wrote:
talbany wrote:
vibratoking wrote:Sorry guys, but no improv? SD's music has some of the greatest improve guitar solos of all time.
When I refer to improv I relate that to the more traditional uses of improv ( What Bird was known and jazz music in general) that played a much larger role in the body of the song than just short 30 sec solo break found in the more radio friendly songs we hear..I am not taking anything away from the some of the wonderful solos in SD's studio work..I don't know how much of those solos were actually improved on the spot and how many needed to be crafted and edited.. I know in talking with Rick Derringer that he would have to try quite a few different ways of approaching a song or solo in some of those SD sessions before they were happy or even considered it for a master track..I also remember him mentioning that they had a difficult time in those early days doing some live shows since so many different players played on those sessions to find 1 guy to cover all those styles and sounds..Anyway it's just my interpretation of what real improv is..That's all

BTW..Ricky don't loose that number was in reference to Rick Derringer

Tony
Tony, check out Becker's solo playing in the live "Josie" linked just above by Nick C., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54dNhJjgg , and for a different third-party claim to the inspiration for "Rickki Don't Lose That Number," see in the EW article I linked on pg. 1. The spelling of the name Rikki (Ducornet) is the same, anyway- here's a direct link, 4th paragraph: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1174152_3,00.html

Martin
There are all kinds of stories and myths surrounding this song (Don't believe everything you read on the net).. I'll pretty much take the word from the man himself over Entertainment weekly article..We've been working with Rick for 9 years with his signature amp...
http://www.vvtamps.com/portfolio/rick-d ... yperdrive/
Tony, check out Becker's solo playing in the live "Josie" linked just above by Nick C., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54dNhJjgg ,
.I know their live shows have more improv, and thats great!!..Enjoyed it ..Thanks!!


Happy Easter!!

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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martin manning
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Re: Steely Dan, it's time for a talk.

Post by martin manning »

I don't know... Rikki Ducornet's public statement (EW interview) that she thinks the Rikki in the song is her carries some weight with me, and the somewhat unusual spelling is a match. I've heard the one about the joint for years. Fagan isn't telling, though... That'd kill the mistique.
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