bad power in club

[toner]

I play this one club thats nice, but the power is bad. i use my matchless clubman and it sounds great everywhere, but i bring it to this club and it doesn't sound right. gets worse as the night goes on too. i guess ill fork out a variac, and maybe bring that and adjust voltage during the night... i haven't had time to check the voltage in there and bring a meter... so i'm just guessing at this point. i guess the voltage could be right, and the current not... is there a easy way to check what the problem is if its not the voltage sagging thru the night? the amp sounds distorted and thin... i did play a club one time that did something similar.. during the set voltage was sagging towards 90v... nighmare solution on that one was bring a 100ft power cable and run it thru the kitchen, let the rest of the band suffer... which was great until the cord got kicked out by waiters...

[matt h]

(deleted)

[Leo_Gnardo]

There are also line conditioners--more expensive but better for giving you the clean 120V (or 115, or 125. many are adjustable). Dirty AC can sound pretty awful and can't be fixed with a variac as it's not a straightforward drop in voltage.

Good point. Imagine dialing up a variac with overvoltage option to make up for a 90V supply then whatever load is taken off that line & the voltage going to your amp now swings up to 140V. Ow, we can do without that.

A couple decades ago I used to go see a band at a club in a local mall. Although I repaired the guitarist's amps to a T, he said they sounded awful only when playing that club. They ran a 100 foot extension to the kitchen for the whole band. Besides voltage loss in that long hedgeclipper cable, they plugged into outlets in the kitchen all powered, ummm, under powered by the same supply that ran the fridges & other kitchen gear. It all sucked wind something awful, dodgy cheap under spec wiring in the mall then the final insult having to share power at the end of a 100 foot extension. Somehow the keyboards & PA worked & sounded hmmm.... acceptable. But tube guitar amps, not so much. A wonder that extension didn't just melt.

Bad enough, the sound & stage gear. When they plugged in lights, had blackouts on stage, then rush back to reset the breaker. I told 'em to invest in another extension cord and find another outlet on another breaker to run the lights.

They were disappointed the local "genius" (so they thought, I know better) couldn't work a miracle. Well there's only so much you can do... without bringing in a generator. That would not have gone over well with club manager.

Most line conditioners poop out by the time the input voltage sags down to 90 VAC so that might be an expensive but fruitless route.

[vibratoking]

I play this one club thats nice, but the power is bad. i use my matchless clubman and it sounds great everywhere, but i bring it to this club and it doesn't sound right. gets worse as the night goes on too. i guess ill fork out a variac, and maybe bring that and adjust voltage during the night... i haven't had time to check the voltage in there and bring a meter... so i'm just guessing at this point. i guess the voltage could be right, and the current not... is there a easy way to check what the problem is if its not the voltage sagging thru the night? the amp sounds distorted and thin... i did play a club one time that did something similar.. during the set voltage was sagging towards 90v... nighmare solution on that one was bring a 100ft power cable and run it thru the kitchen, let the rest of the band suffer... which was great until the cord got kicked out by waiters...

With all due respect, most of your comments are off the mark. You are confused about AC power, noise and how it impacts your rig. A variac won't help you. The club usually can't control the line voltage. That's the utility company. Voltage right and current not is very unlikely. A voltage meter won't really help you much. The club's wiring could be an issue, but it most likely wouldn't be changing with time. The problem is most likely noise and none of the things you mentioned will help. You need a GOOD line conditioner with GOOD filtering AND an isolation transformer. Unfortunately, those usually aren't cheap. I've been using one of these for years with good results. http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=AR-1215. I can usually run the whole band from it. Even this can only go so far. If the voltage is really sagging below 95V or so, nothing will help except to make your own power.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

It may not be a power issue. It might be an acoustics issue. I played a gig a few years ago. We got everything set up and proceeded to do a sound check before the guests arrived. I was playing through a Tone Master head into a single, open back EVM12L and I could not believe my ears! Shrill, thin, anemic tone! I turned both the treble and mids all the way down, and the bass all the way up, and my tone was still way brighter than I cared for. It did get a little better after the guests arrived, but not much. It's like the room was a huge and very efficient bass trap!

[M Fowler]

I've experienced this power issue in clubs too. It seems like later in the night it improves, probably kitchen fryers shut down.

Beer coolers also are on time delayed start up for the compressor and I think they contribute to line noise plus all the fluorescent beer signs.

Regulated voltage plus line conditioners is standard around my area.

[Milkmansound]

It may not be a power issue. It might be an acoustics issue. I played a gig a few years ago. We got everything set up and proceeded to do a sound check before the guests arrived. I was playing through a Tone Master head into a single, open back EVM12L and I could not believe my ears! Shrill, thin, anemic tone! I turned both the treble and mids all the way down, and the bass all the way up, and my tone was still way brighter than I cared for. It did get a little better after the guests arrived, but not much. It's like the room was a huge and very efficient bass trap!

This happens all the time. I just did a run of shows in theaters and had the low end cranked on an open back cab. One venue had a wall behind the stage instead of a curtain (smaller joint) and my low end came back!

Moral of the story: bring a wall with you wherever you go if you have an open back cab

[Gibsonman63]

I would eliminate the simple things first. Buy an outlet checker for $10. Maybe you are missing a ground or the hot and neutral are swapped.

[gui_tarzan]

The club usually can't control the line voltage. That's the utility company.

Maybe. If the power is coming into the breaker box at the correct voltage but there is faulty wiring inside the building as you mentioned, that IS the club's problem. I've dealt with power issues with computers for many years, mostly due to poor wiring inside a building.

I had a situation many years ago where a business bought a computer from the store I worked at. They called me one day and said it had a virus so I picked it up, checked it out and it wasn't running right so I reloaded the OS. It ran fine after that. Took it back, the next day or two they called and were pissed because it was "infected" again. Having just gone to a conference that had APC there educating us about power issues I thought that might be the case here so I took a power conditioner with monitoring to the site.

A few days later I looked at the log and it showed frequent power drops throughout the day. I asked them what else was on that circuit and they said their PCs and a copier. Sure enough, when they used the copier the power dropped to 80-some volts and it even made the lights flicker. I said to have their electricians add a dedicated circuit to the office to plug the copier into and the problem with the computer never happened again.

As our power co. showed me recently, they have to build the supply side to far higher specs than buildings are required to have, the problem is rarely a lack of delivery. It's usually inside the building but not always. I had a low-voltage problem at my house recently and apparently the problem was with the connection from the main supply to the transformer at the pole outside my house. Since then I have a steady 122-125v. The wiring coming from the pole to my meter is capable of delivering far more voltage and current than I will ever use.

A voltage meter won't really help you much. The club's wiring could be an issue, but it most likely wouldn't be changing with time.

Not necessarily, if you can document a drop (or low voltage) the club owner could/should take that to heart and fix the problem. He/she certainly doesn't want to be responsible for ruining a band's gear. If the power isn't good enough to prevent damage I won't plug my equipment into it. Obviously with tube amps there isn't as much to worry about but most of the equipment we use today has some SS circuitry in it. PAs, some guitar and bass rigs, effects, etc. are all susceptible to damage from low-voltage issues.

The problem is most likely noise and none of the things you mentioned will help. You need a GOOD line conditioner with GOOD filtering AND an isolation transformer.

That IS definitely a factor, especially with buildings like bars that have kitchens running freezers, deep fryers, etc. on a limited number of circuits. Poor wiring can cause all sorts of issues, especially if you get a neutral to ground leak or have a missing/bad ground.

[Davidg]

This is a pretty reasonable fail-safe with isolated transformer,regulated supply, well-filtered, and surge protection with battery backup. Just think-whole venue could lose power and u could do a awesome blacked-out solo while it's being fixed. or a tleast til u run out of juice
http://www.directron.com/br1000g.html
And cheaper option
http://www.directron.com/bk500.html
U can probably find these cheaper this is just the first that came up on my search.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Sure enough, when they used the copier the power dropped to 80-some volts and it even made the lights flicker. I said to have their electricians add a dedicated circuit to the office to plug the copier into and the problem with the computer never happened again.

Laser copiers are notorious for drawing huge current spikes from the line. Good observation and fix!

if you can document a drop (or low voltage) the club owner could/should take that to heart and fix the problem. He/she certainly doesn't want to be responsible for ruining a band's gear. If the power isn't good enough to prevent damage I won't plug my equipment into it. Obviously with tube amps there isn't as much to worry about but most of the equipment we use today has some SS circuitry in it. PAs, some guitar and bass rigs, effects, etc. are all susceptible to damage from low-voltage issues.

Club owners/managers around here couldn't give a rat's butt. "If your gear's damaged, it was damaged when you brought it in. Don't blame us and don't come back. Besides you play too loud anyway. And you're ugly." Hey, it's Noo Yawk, lotta attitude.

Poor wiring can cause all sorts of issues, especially if you get a neutral to ground leak or have a missing/bad ground.

And if that's not enough - a band I was mixing was asked to play a local high prestige club, in the middle of a deep freeze spell one winter. Of course we were all chuffed and wanted to do our best. Had about an hour of panic when the Hammond/Leslie wouldn't fire up. We figured it was cold bearings/oil and would start up right after sitting in the room a bit. No dice. Turned out the outlet our keyboarist selected was run off a dimmer and was dialed down to about 40V. Picked a non dimmer outlet and on with the show. WHEW!

[toner]

this club owner doesn't care about anything at all... i mean anything his big SS bass amp is broken, it works for 10 minutes and then dies, so everyone uses the small bass amp there... the house guitar amp, JC120 works, but sounds like crap for some reason, not right. the 90V story was at another club, and i solved that problem.
yes, i should check the stupid things first, but ive never had grounding issues... and i don't think reverse polarity would give me what im getting...
i plugged into the outlet the bass was plugged into one night and my amp sounded the worst... no output and turned into a shitty fuzz sound...
it feels like cathode stripping and my tubes are dying but i need to do some more testing... btw, this is overseas so im dealing with 240v now the variac idea was stolen from robben ford

[Leo_Gnardo]

his big SS bass amp is broken, it works for 10 minutes and then dies, so everyone uses the small bass amp there..

Probably has a non functioning internal fan. Maybe just quit, or the blades loaded with dust & roaches to the point it won't spin, ick. Seen it happen.