Bedroom recording a Wreck

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

User avatar
RJ Guitars
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Contact:

Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by RJ Guitars »

I am trying to find the best way to make some clips of my Wreckish amps. As you know an Express is really loud and I want to know:

Can expect good results using an isolation cabinet?

What kind of speaker(s) are best for recording?

What kind of microphone(s)?

Location of the microphones?

What to avoid?

Can I record a dry signal and play it back through the amp in order to make component change comparisons?

Any help offered is appreciated.
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...

http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
User avatar
geetarpicker
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by geetarpicker »

It seems isolation cabs tend to mess with the natural EQ of a speaker, in a bad way vs the same speaker in a standard cabinet where the mic isn't chambered up. Same goes for even a regular cab if you cram it in a very small reflective space. The trapped air space in iso boxes tends to cause a real honk to the sound and the sound tends to have more peaks and valleys EQ wise. Some iso cabs get around this somewhat by having the chamber behind the speaker not truly sealed, but ported though a long duct with a lot of dampening. Still the sound then tends to leak more, and you still have some odd EQ curves to deal with. IMHO you are better off with a small cab placed in a closet, hopefully not too tiny square footage wise then dampen the heck out of it. A closet full of hanging clothes and a carpeted floor can really sound good though it will be very dry sounding. It usually works better to angle the cab so if there are any reflections they don't bounce directly back to the mic. A little reverb added to the recordings after they are recorded will help to make things more natural sounding. If you have a nice live room to record that can sound great, but the volume will be loud and your neighbors may not dig it.

The best small cabinet I've found for emulating the fullness of a 4x12 is the Bogner Cube 1x12. It also seems to be well tuned for Celestions. Speakers wise I'd go with a Scumback M75 or you might try a new Celestion Creamback G12M 65 watter. I haven't tried the new Creamback with my wrecks yet, but they have really impressed me in my Fender combos. That said Pete Thorn and Steve Stevens have both been using these cabs with great results in their studios. The Bogner cube cab is front ported which helps to if you have to cram it in a small room and deaden it with blankets, clothes, etc. Open back cabs can be trickier to deal with in the same setting, as you can change the tuning of the thing if you try to dampen behind it and it can be harder to then control the volume.

IF you are running a Mac I just get an Apogee One interface. They first made them with just 1 mic pre, and would record only 1 channel input at a time. The newer version of it add a 2nd mic pre and can record two tracks at a time. Still for recording you can get by with just one mic, and I've seen the first version of the "One" go for about $150 used. Still, this interface is MAC only. The One is also a bit delicate, but find one that was well cared for and you should be good. It does have a decent built in condenser mic which would work for some live room recordings at a distance, but you might want a Shure SM57 as it works well for close micing and isn't much $. I'd place it right at the grill, and then experiment with position to dial in either full high end clarity (mic centered on cone) or more high end roll off by moving the mic towards the edge of the cone. For recording software you could use Reaper, which is a great free DAW program though they encourage donations. The software also has some plugs ins (like EQ and reverb) which might come in handy. If you are running a PC I'd suggest an RME interface, perhaps their "Babyface" interface would be in your budget but they aren't cheap and quite a bit more than a used ONE.

Some folks like Mac's Garage band DAW which is built in, though I'm pretty sure it tracks straight to MP3 format files so it's already compromised fidelity wise the moment you record your source.

Radial and others make devices to aid in reamping a guitar signal. You are really going to need a top quality interface to do this, as you don't want to add any noise to the raw guitar signal if you plan to reamp it with a high gain amp. No matter what this will take some experimentation to closely replicate the same pickup loading as plugging straight in. Sure a looper pedal would work, but it probably won't work well enough to be a very valid tool to finely compare things.

That's a start but there are many ways you could go about this!
User avatar
RJ Guitars
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by RJ Guitars »

Thanks a ton, that was exactly what I was looking for. The focus on the home recording aspects are right on the money. I accumulated some equipment over the last couple years, including a couple good mics, a Scarlett 2i2 USB interface, and a Jet City isolation cabinet. I originally bought the cab to play through at church... it sounded awful from day one so I can believe what you said about iso cabs. Maybe if I put a better speaker in it would sound good but I'm not inclined to invest any further in it at this point. I am intrigued by the Bogner cube speaker cabinet and I'll read up on them. I have a walk-in closet available off of my guitar room and it's full of my wife's hanging clothes. It would be extra nice not to have to buy a 4x12 cabinet and four speakers to load it with. thanks again!
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...

http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
User avatar
geetarpicker
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by geetarpicker »

Sounds like you have some decent recording gear, so it's mainly sorting out a cabinet. I think you will like the Bogner Cube. For years (over 15) I had a Mesa Theile port cab and though it was a great physical size I could never make it work. I tried sealing it up, blocking the ports and adding open back panels, using it in stock configuration and it was still a no go. I must have tried a dozen speakers in it also. Some say it is tuned specifically for an EV and though mine came with an EV I never got along with it even then. That said, I don't think I'm an EV guy no matter what box they are in.
LedZepp007
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by LedZepp007 »

I can't speak to the cab issue, although building one (like the AX84 1x12) might be a good, cheaper solution to the Bogner or a 4x12.

In terms of mic'ing, you'd want at least a high SPL dynamic mic close to the grill, likely slightly off axis. You can also try a second, room mic. This can be a condenser mic back further in the room (so that you don't blow the capsule). You can record both channels simultaneously on the Scarlett. You can balance the grill mic and room mic in your DAW. Should sound pretty huge.

You should be able to record 24-bit AIFF on Garageband and it would work fine for this application.
User avatar
RJ Guitars
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by RJ Guitars »

I failed to mention I have a 14 channel Mackie mixer, although so far I have only been using it to EQ the tracks and play them through the monitors. Thus far I have been recording the guitar directly into the Scarlett interface and straight into a PC using "Audacity". Let me know if there is a better way I should set things up.

Tonight I pulled the speaker out of the Jet City iso cab and found it was an Eminence with a custom Jet City label on it. I put that speaker into another cabinet so I could hear it outside of the iso cab... it sounded positively horrid. Maybe the worst sounding speaker I've ever heard - Blatty and weak, maybe even damaged although it is brand new!

I borrowed a vintage 30 from another cabinet and put it into the iso cab and it sounded immensely better. It broke up very smoothly albeit a bit dark sounding. I'll try recording some with it and see if it does anything noteworthy.

Not sure whether I'll try to use or just get rid of the iso cab. My first thought about the V-30 is that I think I want a little more top end than I hear right now (although I am not certain how to honestly evaluate what I hear coming from the iso cab at this point). In the meantime I am considering whether I want to go with a Heritage G12-65 or a G12-65M creamback in a single 12 cab then stuff that into the back of the walk-in closet. Does anyone have any thoughts on these speakers? I have studied the reviews and it's not entirely clear which is better yet.

I put a pair of Presonus powered monitors on my Christmas list today... everything else had to come off the list. Little by little I am getting the recording gear together... I am learning a bunch from you guys and through this effort. thanks for the help
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...

http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
User avatar
donzoid
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:22 am
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by donzoid »

+1 on what LedZepp said.

You have just run into the issues that 90% of us who record at home have to deal with. You want to capture the tone of an amp at its best (which is usually a sweet spot that's pretty cranked up) and, as we all know the wreck is one really loud amp from the get-go.

When I'm doing final tracking the method Zep describes (one mic off axis right in front of the grill about 20 degrees off-axis and perpendicular with the plane of the cone, some engineers even prefer upper vs lower corners if using an angle front type cab); and one out in the room (my preference is 4 feet off) the further away the "bigger" it will sound as you capture more room acoustics,natural reverbs, and the "cabinet tone". Just my pref, but I like a large diaphragm condenser there, with a good-ol' sm57 up close.

Therein lies the "catch 22"... the bigger the room (up to a point) the bigger the sound will seem. If you are restricting the space of the room (the most extreme example being the iso cab) to a closet, the best you'll be able to get is about two feet off but that will still sound better than just one mic right at the cone. Try several mics in both close and far spots if you have access to them.

The two waveforms have to be aligned by shifting one to match the other due to the delay between mics. Believe it or not, that few milliseconds when corrected makes it sound "huge".
https://www.facebook.com/trialbyfirerocks

Be sure your tinfoil hat has a good low impedance ground.
Zippy
Posts: 2052
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:18 pm

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by Zippy »

donzoid wrote:The two waveforms have to be aligned by shifting one to match the other due to the delay between mics. Believe it or not, that few milliseconds when corrected makes it sound "huge".
Correcting for wavelength is dependent on the pitch. What note do you use for tuning the mic placement?
User avatar
donzoid
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:22 am
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by donzoid »

Hey Zippy, I'm talking about the phase alignment. You're going to see the mic further out be anywhere from a few milliseconds to 180+ degrees out of phase with the other mic because of the distance between 'em.

Your ears and brain will compensate for spatial differences (amazing really) if for example you are standing at a right angle to a sound source. The ear facing the cab will obviously seem louder, but the phase differences are at least somewhat compensated for "somewhere in my noggin'.."

The DAW just records what is coming into the channel, and when, but if you open both the wav files (for each mic track), you'll see that they can be aligned by nudging one or the other left or right. I open them, and zoom in on them, that's where the difference in time is easy to see in a linear sense.

Granted, sometimes a very small differential can be to your sonic advantage, but if there is too much it starts causing phase cancellations and that's not an accurate representation of what it would sound like "live" which I think is what RJ is after.

So, I guess my answer is, the wavelength at any given pitch should be the same for the two mics - it just helps to time-align the waveforms to avoid phase cancellation. So I don't use a test tone for placement- I use headphones or the control monitors, and move each mic around until I find where each one sounds best, and sometimes that's only 1/4" between just OK and "wow". Then, blend the two to taste after you track.
https://www.facebook.com/trialbyfirerocks

Be sure your tinfoil hat has a good low impedance ground.
User avatar
geetarpicker
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by geetarpicker »

You could get pretty close by recording both mics (distance mic and close up) and first record a click, perhaps tapping the end of the cord to get a percussive pop at the cabinet. Then you could zoom in on this click/pop in the DAW program and use it to help line up the two tracks. Either way eventually listen to both tracks mixed together in mono to see how any cancellation issues show up or not. Phase accurate is going to be darn near impossible unless you record a really percussive short click that shows up well in the DAW, but use your ears also.

Even clicking a TW amp standby switch on may be audible enough to use as a time alignment tool. I've used the standby switch click to aid in lining up my Youtube videos, since the video was a camera, but the audio was completely separate audio chain in a DAW. Different reasons for time alignment in video/audio but just thought I'd mention it.

That said, I've done quite a few double mic recordings (close and distance) mixed together and didn't worry about the time alignment and just went with the slight slap back which can sound cool. If your distance mic is lower volume wise, things get less critical. Things are tricky when you are using a 50/50 blend. It's also a little tough though if you want to keep them panned in stereo AND also want the mono compatibility to be decent too. Also if your room is quite dead a distance mic won't add much that you couldn't simulate with a delay plug in. However if the room is ambient your distance mic might add something quite cool. Experiment!
rock_mumbles
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:03 am
Location: Podunk, Idaho
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by rock_mumbles »

rj ... I have one of the JetCity 20 watt combos with the (china) Eminence speakers and the speaker is ~ok~ not the greatest but not junk either ...
It's a similar speaker to the Epiphone Lady Luck ... I only use them with low wattage amps also 15 to 20 watts

It sounds to me like your speaker is bad ???
I'd try anther speaker in the JetCity cab (although I agree that iso cabs don't sound the same as a normal speaker cab)
User avatar
RJ Guitars
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by RJ Guitars »

Hey guys, thanks for all the input, I certainly have a lot to learn in this part of the guitar world. I haven't worried especially about aligning two mics yet... just hoping to get one or the other to sound similar to what my ears are hearing. My son has my SM-57 and is supposed to ship it back to me tomorrow, that should help things a bit. In the meantime I've been learning to work with a SM58 and also a Sennheiser that Zippy loaned to me. Things are starting to sound a bit better based on some of the input I got from you.

I needed to be quiet this morning so I put the SM-58 in the Jet City iso-cab that now has a Vintage 30 speaker in it. I aligned the mic perpendicular to the front panel just of center of the cone about three inches from the speaker face... finally getting some decent tones out of it and they also sounded similar to what my ears were hearing. I did have to learn a bit about latency settings with the Scarlett unit and there is a cool reverb thing you might hear right as the guitar comes in on the recording... it was a mistake but sounded cool so I left it there.

I again used the Hamer Monico III with the mix of the center and bridge pickup (P-90's). The amp was my Express test amp with the volume set at 9:00 and the only change I made in between recordings was adjusting the volume up and down on the guitar.

I am trying to buy one of those Bogner 1x12 cube cabs, we'll see if I can swing that. I will be curious how the sound will differ using the SM-57 and a cube style cab.

In the meantime I appreciate your kind and gentle feedback on the clips, I figure I will have to take some bruises and expose my ignorance a bit to learn what it takes to make a decent recording.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...

http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
njwrecks
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by njwrecks »

sounds great RJ - nice amp!!
User avatar
RJ Guitars
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by RJ Guitars »

Thanks Mike. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Good, Fast, or Cheap -- Pick two...

http://www.rjguitars.net
http://www.rjaudioresearch.com/
http://diyguitaramps.prophpbb.com/
User avatar
Meat&Beer
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:37 pm
Location: Coldest tip of NY woods

Re: Bedroom recording a Wreck

Post by Meat&Beer »

Those don't sound too bad at all to me! Adding a second mic is where the real fun comes in. As already stated, you have to watch out for phasing issues with them. What model Sennheizer do you have on loan out of curiosity?

Pop on some headphones and try to locate the mic(s) from the side of the cabinet so it's not blaring in your face while playing a chord on the guitar. (if not an isocab) Strum a chord, move the mic ever so slightly on its axis, or left/right/up/down/closer/further and listen. Sound better? try again. Sound worse? Move it back.

Do this with both mics independently, then together to listen to their relationship. Then, record a short clip. Play them back both at the same time, them mute one. Does the volume (perceived and actual) go up or down? If it goes down, then that's good. If it goes up, you have some phase cancelling going on. You can either move one of the mics, or just flip the phase in the recording program. Some mic pre's have this option as well, not sure about yours.

If flipping the phase helps, but not much, you're more in the 90 deg out of phase realm rather than 180 deg and you need to nudge one of the mics closer or further away.

If you want to get really picky and align the phase of two or more waveforms, zoom in. Like, crazy amounts! Get closer, look for a "landmark" and line them up close. Zoom, zoom, zoom, align again. Zoom in until you can see the actual steps in the wavform lined up all pretty. There, home run for ya. I don't do this unless I hear that something is wrong. Sometimes, little anomalies sound good, and are REALLY hard to reproduce. You can line up a track any day of the week, though. You can have fun with it, too. Nudge one just off (Or give it a few bumps even) from perfect and give it a listen. Sometimes, you'll be quite surprised at what results.

I've never had much love for the SM57, it's an industry standard, yes, and most people swear by them. I kind of moreso swear at them. (Just my opinion!) I like to use a large diaphragm condenser toward the center of the cone and north about an inch, and something like a Sennheizer 421 about 1-2"s from the outer perimeter. A very nice range in frequencies results, and it's a nice big and natural sound. I'm also having really good luck with a Sennheizer e602 for the bottom end, normally these are used for bass or kick drum. Sounds fantastic on guitar cabs, too! But not by itself, it needs help from other mics. It's all relative like that.

Of course, a room mic is nice, but I think of those more for a studio sound rather than a real life sound. It's like adding a touch of reverb in post. Now, when you get to using 3+ mics on a cabinet, oh yeah!

When using more than 1 mic, remember to raise/lower the volume in your mixer of one or the other to get a nice mix that's pleasing and natural. One mic can be picking up more of what you like or sounds best about the overall content than the other. Watch out for hot levels, beginning especially at the preamp. Keep the overall output conservative, barely in the yellow on the meter is usually the place to be. About -8 to -10.

Remember this, a recording is only as good as what you're using, starting with your hands and ending at your listening monitors. Guitar, cable, amp, cab/speakers, mic, mic cable, preamp... On down the line.
Post Reply