Effects with a Wreck

[Tonegeek]

Part 1) Has anyone put a loop into a Wreck and how did it work out? What FX worked the best in the loop (in terms of not mucking up the amps tone and/or the signal level)?
Part II) For FX run at the input, which ones worked the best?

I am especially interested in how delay and verb perform with these amps.

[soma_hero]

Check this thread out,
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8315

second post links to this schematic:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=8277

where he talks about inserting a loop into the express. Says it sounds good. I've used some delay in front of my Liverpool with no ill effects.

[geetarpicker]

I think the best way to preserve the tone of a cranked Trainwreck type amp is with a wet/dry rig. Personally I think Ken left effects loops out of these for a reason. Effects on the input are always a compromise with such a gainy amp. Try some effects "post amplifier" either from the pa or wet/dry setup and you may really appreciate the pure tone still retained that way. Glen

[jjman]

I agree that the best method for delay and/or reverb on such an amp would be post-amp. Short of that, I wanted the second best solution so I worked out a parallel loop.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8207

I recorded the results which was the 1st time I recorded playing on this amp. (I had previously only recorded hiss levels of various V1 tubes.) The recording revealed a buzzy distortion on top of the good distortion, regardless of the loop setting. It was likely always there. I resolved it by changing the PI tube but haven't re-recorded it yet.

I place my other effects in front if needed. Chorus or fuzz or compressor or wah.

[Tonegeek]

I agree that the best method for delay and/or reverb on such an amp would be post-amp. Short of that, I wanted the second best solution so I worked out a parallel loop.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8207

I recorded the results which was the 1st time I recorded playing on this amp. (I had previously only recorded hiss levels of various V1 tubes.) The recording revealed a buzzy distortion on top of the good distortion, regardless of the loop setting. It was likely always there. I resolved it by changing the PI tube but haven't re-recorded it yet.

I place my other effects in front if needed. Chorus or fuzz or compressor or wah.

That looks like a good idea. Really for delay and verb (which is all I use in my loop) the phase should not matter as long as you keep the original signal from being delivered back to the amp from the FX unit (only return the wet side).

Soma referred me to this scheme (http://ampgarage.com/forum/download/file.php?id=8277) that uses a tube. This one flips the phase. The cathode follower maintains the phase going out, but the recovery stage flips it coming back in. I have something similar built into my D-clone but it is a series loop. It works great in that amp because all the compression, clipping occurs in the stages before the loop. I don't know that it would work as well in the wreck amps. A parallel version looks like a better choice here.

For a spare no expense approach, I agree with Glen that using a separate rig for FX is the best answer. I might try that using my Twin for the FX amp.

[Structo]

I have the Ironsounds FX loop in my D'Lite, it works pretty darn good.

Not sure if it would work that well in an express though.

I run my delay and reverb through it.
My only complaint is that it totally depends where the master volume is set since the loop feeds the PI.

Like suggested, if you can afford to run a two amp rig with an AB/Y switch would be ideal for lead/ rhythm work but would still not provide reverb or delay unless you ran the pedals before the AB switch.

[Tonegeek]

I have the Ironsounds FX loop in my D'Lite, it works pretty darn good.

Not sure if it would work that well in an express though.

I run my delay and reverb through it.
My only complaint is that it totally depends where the master volume is set since the loop feeds the PI.

Like suggested, if you can afford to run a two amp rig with an AB/Y switch would be ideal for lead/ rhythm work but would still not provide reverb or delay unless you ran the pedals before the AB switch.

I think Glen was meaning to use another rig just for FX, not really clean/dirty. Even this is an issue with certain FX. Ideally, with delay at least, you want repeats of the original sound so if you get this great tone out of the wreck, you won't get that with the delay amp unless you mike the Wreck and run it through the FX rig. As pointed out elsewhere, running time based FX on a high gain amp causes issues and it goes something like this:

At lower gain settings (guitar turned down, etc.) everything works pretty well. As you crank the gain up for leads, the initial note sounds great due to tube compression, harmonics, etc. but as the tube recovers, the delays come along and now the delay does not have the same nice compression or harmonics. On top of that it is too loud relative to where it was when the gain was lower because the delayed notes don't hit the tube as hard. Amps like the Dumble that generate thier tone in the pre-amp don't suffer from this issue because the compression happens before it hits the FX loop. The Wreck topology appears to get some pre-amp compression, but it appears to also get the output compressing/clipping as well.

I am wondering if an Air Brake mod for line level out would help out here, or maybe a recording out on the amp where the signal is taken from the speaker output jack. You could just run that into your delay and then to another amp. Still won't get the effect of going through the speaker, but it should sound better than a clean repeat.

You could also have your wet rig set up to overdrive (using a pedal) as the volume is cranked. So Guitar > Y chord with one side dry to the Wreck, side B to an OD pedal > Delay and then to input of wet amp. You want the FX amp to have lots of headroom.

[gearhead]

This is one of my favorite clips, and one of the few I've heard with delay.

Jackie Treehorn posted it from his band's practice.

http://www.theinside.net/SSRev-01.mp3


It's in this thread http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ht=beatles

[Tonegeek]

This is one of my favorite clips, and one of the few I've heard with delay.

Jackie Treehorn posted it from his band's practice.

http://www.theinside.net/SSRev-01.mp3


It's in this thread http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ht=beatles

Very nice clip there.

I dont have a wreck yet, but I tried the 2 amp wet/dry setup using my Dumble clone for the dry amp and a Twin Reverb for FX. I wired it up like this:

Guitar > Dumble input> Dumble send > GT-3 > Line in on the Twin. The Dumble is powering a 2x12 open back cab and the Twin powers its own 2x12 cab. The Dumble has a cathode follower on the send side of its loop with a level control. The Twin has a common cathode stage on its line in (return) also with a control (really just the master volume for the entire amp). The GT-3 was set-up for delay and the volume pedal only. I panned the FX to the wet side but I am still getting some of the main signal going to the Twin. I have not figured out yet how to get only the FX. It might not be possible with this unit. However, it sounds fantastic anyway! The Dumble sounds better than ever because there is nothing in the loop degrading the main signal. The signal going to the Twin is going to mimic whatever channel is selected on the Dumble so no problems there. The delay sounds close enough to the main signal to be acceptable. I have not tried this setup with my band yet, but will next time we rehearse. It might be overwhelming in a sense because it is so 3 dimensional now. I feel completely surrounded by my guitar sound with this setup. I will have to see how the other band members respond to this. I am loving it, as impractical as it is.

So how to do this with a Wreck? I can't imagine the y chord off the guitar is going to work that well due to the tone differences in the wet/dry sound. I am thinking there at least has to be a line out somehwere as I espoused in a previous post to put out a signal similar to the main signal. I can't wait to tackle this problem. I am thinking that leftover triode in a Wreck is going to be a cathode follower for a line out...

[azatplayer]

I just love running two amps. Run my main driving tone thru one amp, no effects, then run delay(mainly) thru a second amp, very wet, and blend the two together.
When i first got my swart ast, i ran it thru the lo input on my JMP, guitar into swart hi, lo into Marshall, and i was an instant convert on 2 amp rigs.
The reverb and tremolo of the swart, had an amzing reaction with the second amp. It givs the illusion of both amps having the effects, but as the swart is pretty compressed, the more responsive amp, JMP, reacts with pick attack, rising above the weaker amp.
Its a pretty sweet illusion, and with the stronger of the two amps leading the way, but also giving way to the weaker when backing off on attack, very very rewarding result.
I like it!