Ken doesn't make them anymore. He didn't invent tube amps or their design. His niche in the market was his tuning ability. He is able to dial in a basic circuit to the players needs. When someone buys a KF TW, they are buying Ken, or more precisely, his ear for getting the exact tone the player wished for. I have bought many things from Nik and he is a great source for parts at a "working man's" price. Nik doesn't usually follow exact schematics also but make s changes according to available parts in his part of the world. As we have all found out here, Every part makes a difference in these amps.
My feeling is...go for it. One more point....Nik puts his own money up to design, build, and produce these chassis and other parts for us to buy on the cheap. I for one say thank you!
Yeah, an issue indeed. Theres lots of tweaks that can be done, would it still matter?
Yes it would. Selling a marshall versus "I swear this is completely my design and itd beat any amp" - which would sell more easily?
Someone said that buying a TW is buying KF, or his ear. This is quite spot on, altho as time goes by, and the vintage/collectibility factor seeps in, it's more the name.
I dont know. Not sure can work a deal, my prices would be low, so if royalties are involved, it wont be that much. The logical progression would be " Why spoil a market willing to pay 15-20K?".
OK, I'll think about it. My guys are still here 12 am on overtime, I am taking em to McDs! Heh...some Big Macs perhaps would show me the way..
Omar wrote:
UR12
Thanks for the explanation but wouldn't 40ma imply that all the current is getting dumped across the 220k resistor? I would think that current is flowing to the rest of the B+ circuit. I guess the best thing would have been to measure the voltage drop between the two 10k before I removed them to calculate how much current does flow.
Omar
Hmmmmmm..... I did make one mistake. I figured the current for one 10k and you were using two in series. This would drop the 40ma down to 20ma through the bleeder resistors. Using ohms law I=E/R 400v/20000ohms =.020 amps or 20ma. Any time you series 2 same value resistors the voltage drop accross each resistor added together will equal the applied voltage. If we have 400v across the resistors each will drop 200v. So from ground to the point between the resistors you should measure 200v.
If you look at the Kelly 90 schematic you will see that there are 2 circuits that hook to the B+1 point. This is the 2 100k bleeder resistors in series and the OT CT which supplies B+ to the EL34s. Let's assume for a minute that we have a power supply that is capable of supplying 400v with a max current of 200ma. Since the bleeder resistor and the OT and power tubes are in parallel, the current flowing to B+1 is split into two paths. One path through the bleeder resistors and the other through the power tubes. We also have other circuits connected to B+2,B+3,B+4, etc. For the sake of argument lets say the 3 12AX7As are pulling 20ma ea. This would present a total load on the power supply of 60ma for the rest of the preamp circuits. If we subtract 60 ma from out 200ma, that the PS is capable of delivering, then you end up with 140 ma available for B+1. If you subtract the 20 ma from the bleeder resistor you now have 120ma available for the EL34s. If you change the bleeder resistors to 100k+ the current through them drops to .002 amps or 2ma. This would give you 138 ma available to the EL34s in stead of 120ma which will give you a little more headroom for producing those power hungry Bass notes.
I hope that made sense. The figures I am using are purley for the sake of discussion and I am not trying to say that the PS in the Express is only capable of 200ma max. That would depend on you PT and other things. I guess the most important thing is to make sure you have at least 200k of resistance for your bleeder resistors. If we calculate the time constant for a 200k resistor and a 80 mfd cap (2 x40mfd) you will see that it will require about 76 sec for the cap to discharge 99% of its voltage. If we change the resistor to a 470k it would take 173 seconds. Using the 20k it would only take 7.4 sec.
Your Fatman is sweet!!!! I love the blonde fender knobs and the atom bomb logo......very cool.
I thought it over a bit today and I can see your points on the Trainwreck kits. Like I said I can see both sides of the issue. I don't feel strongly either way and just thought I would put my thoughts out there.
Nik - I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I think you provide great products and a great service and if the kits furthers the Trainwreck cloning experience, who am I to get a bug in my butt about it?
UR12 wrote:Hmmmmmm..... I did make one mistake. I figured the current for one 10k and you were using two in series. This would drop the 40ma down to 20ma through the bleeder resistors. Using ohms law I=E/R 400v/20000ohms =.020 amps or 20ma. Any time you series 2 same value resistors the voltage drop accross each resistor added together will equal the applied voltage. If we have 400v across the resistors each will drop 200v. So from ground to the point between the resistors you should measure 200v.
If you look at the Kelly 90 schematic you will see that there are 2 circuits that hook to the B+1 point. This is the 2 100k bleeder resistors in series and the OT CT which supplies B+ to the EL34s. Let's assume for a minute that we have a power supply that is capable of supplying 400v with a max current of 200ma. Since the bleeder resistor and the OT and power tubes are in parallel, the current flowing to B+1 is split into two paths. One path through the bleeder resistors and the other through the power tubes. We also have other circuits connected to B+2,B+3,B+4, etc. For the sake of argument lets say the 3 12AX7As are pulling 20ma ea. This would present a total load on the power supply of 60ma for the rest of the preamp circuits. If we subtract 60 ma from out 200ma, that the PS is capable of delivering, then you end up with 140 ma available for B+1. If you subtract the 20 ma from the bleeder resistor you now have 120ma available for the EL34s. If you change the bleeder resistors to 100k+ the current through them drops to .002 amps or 2ma. This would give you 138 ma available to the EL34s in stead of 120ma which will give you a little more headroom for producing those power hungry Bass notes.
I hope that made sense. The figures I am using are purley for the sake of discussion and I am not trying to say that the PS in the Express is only capable of 200ma max. That would depend on you PT and other things. I guess the most important thing is to make sure you have at least 200k of resistance for your bleeder resistors. If we calculate the time constant for a 200k resistor and a 80 mfd cap (2 x40mfd) you will see that it will require about 76 sec for the cap to discharge 99% of its voltage. If we change the resistor to a 470k it would take 173 seconds. Using the 20k it would only take 7.4 sec.
Your Fatman is sweet!!!! I love the blonde fender knobs and the atom bomb logo......very cool.
UR12 - Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me but I think I need to take measurements and then sit down and do the calculations to prove it to myself.
Thanks for the comments on the Fatman. My next project will be a two channel version of the Fatman with effects loop and separate EQ.
Hmmm very good questions.. I do respect Ken and other builders..
But not many can afford a 20k Wreck. Even if they could ,how many ever come up for sale? Most would want an amp that is the real deal built by a master guru. And other people have been building them,and selling them.
So why is it ok in one way,and not another?
And as Nik said you can build it the same,or you can change it or voice it just a little different. There are many things that would keep it very close,but still change things a bit.
I know this is Kens amp but if you look at this amp.. lets break it down,
Or easier.. there are only very few parts or values that are different of this amp, that could have been taken from a couple other amps,and pieced together.
1 is.. he doesn't use a grid resistor on the input.
2,the values of the stages of the power section are close to a marshall 10k
3. the .1uf cap into the PI.
As you look.. the values of the first stage are fender. the cathode on the other half of V1 is a 2.7k but he used a 22uf instead of a .68 like a marshall.
the gain section is very much like the MV marshall amps with the 10k cathode. The 150k is a little different value,but the .002,or .0022 is the same as a marshall used on some amps.
The .1uf cap into the PI is different.. the bias supply and PI is very much marshal or fender 5F6A. The feedback etc.. the only difference is the fender grid value resistors into the EL34s..
Bright switch is similar to what a fender or in style of how they did it,just a couple different values used.
Now most know,it only takes an added value here and there to make a different sounding amp. And sometimes its critical to how the amp will sound,even by changing one part value.
I'm just trying to get at,lets say 80% of this amp,has been used on many other amps. Its those small things that make the difference Ken used.
And i agree,his layout makes up alot of the amp,in it working like it should.
So.. why is it ok for some to sell copies, and call them something else?
And Ken said he didn't mind people building them for themselves..Which is what Nik would be supplying parts for. Because even if he didn't,it can be done. Just not sell them with a Trainwreck name on them..i can understand that. Just things to think about.
We can all have the same parts.. but alot of building an amp is how it is put together.
Omar wrote:Thanks, guys! I'm pretty happy with how close I got to the pics of Francesca. It's about 90% right. As for the tone, I got to play the amp tonight for about 10 minutes before the kids went to sleep. I played the amp through my 1973 Marshall 4x12 cab with original G12H 30 watt black back speakers with my Tom Anderson Hollow Drop Top Classic.
The amp has a lot of gain on tap, starting at about 9:00. By 12:00 the amp is pretty saturated and beyond 12:00 the amp doesn't get louder just more compressed. I can't say that I'm in love with the distorted tone. It's a good sound just not my cup of tea. I would say in a classic rock setting the distorted tones would definitely work.
One thing that surprised me was a problem in my first build that doesn't happen in this build. If the volume was turned up beyond 3:00, you played a chord and then abruptly stopped, the noise would briefly disappear and then gradually ramp back up. I played the new amp with full volume and the issue was not there.
The feel of this amp if definitely unique. Maybe it's how touch sensitive the amp is but it makes you play. There is a lot of harmonic content there and the feedback thing is totally cool!
Omar
Omar, is that amp still behaving like that? I had a chance to play a new Concorde and it does the same thing. It sounds great! but, being such high gain it of course has some hiss. When you stop playing, the amp is silent for a fraction of a second and then the hiss ramps up. Exactly like the real wreck I saw did. I guess the circuit is pretty much a wreck clone. It sounds very raucous and I liked the gradual setting better for playing. The fast mode is too distorted for anything but leads. Too bad a foot switchable fast/gradual switch isn't there. Hey...I've got an idea.....now where are my relays?
Hey guys- I have got so much respect for Ken F it's not funny. His ability to remember what a little change in almost every component in one of his amps will make in it's overall voicing is beyond phenomenal. However , he never charged such outrageous prices for his amps like Mr.Humble did. He also made himself available to up and comers whom he felt had the potential to make a mark on the music business from the technical side of it. His amps probably never made him minimum wage for the number of hours he actually put into each one. Where the outrageous prices have come from is the big money people who saw their guitar god idols playing thru T.W.s and just had to have one. Well guess what? There were slightly less than a hundred actually built by Ken so the demand by people with more money than anyone really needs outstripped the market and the price went thru the roof. Ken actually charged about 2500 for one of his Wrecks until the last few were built , when his price eased up to around six thou. Still way more than I could ever pay for an amp but well within the reach of a work-a-day studio picker or a guitar god on the way up. Too bad Ken hasn't really profitted from all the glamour his amps have achieved. His name will be heard in the halls of rock and roll for many, many years to come. Sure wish I could sell one of mine for $2500!! I know my better half does, too.. I guess I better shut up-this is about a nickels worth at the very least.
Unfortunately, I have not seen my Express build for about 4 months. Fortunately, it's in the hands of a great local guitar player who sounds unbelievable through the amp. He loves the amp and on some gig will bring the the Express instead of his two amp setup. He really digs the feedback feature. Here is his website:
The hiss issue (ramp up hissing) happened on my first build but not the second. I never figured out why.
That's interesting that the Concorde did that b/c Hogy commented on the Gear Page that real Trainwrecks shouldn't do that and assume the same applies for Komets.
So what are your overall impressions of the Concorde? I've read it's closer sounding to a really good Marshall plexi.
Omar wrote:
I've read it's closer sounding to a really good Marshall plexi.
Omar
I heard it and it sounds more like a super bass. I have to try one though.
I owned a KF50LTD high end cab version of the Concorde. Great amp. To me sounded more like a cross between a K60 and a Plexi. Of course I didnt have the NOS mullards $300 or so extra. But that was my impression of the amp.
Omar wrote:
I've read it's closer sounding to a really good Marshall plexi.
Omar
I heard it and it sounds more like a super bass. I have to try one though.
I owned a KF50LTD high end cab version of the Concorde. Great amp. To me sounded more like a cross between a K60 and a Plexi. Of course I didnt have the NOS mullards $300 or so extra. But that was my impression of the amp.
Why did you sell it? What did you lke and dislke about it? Do you have an express?
Hi Omar, I had the amp for about a week to check it out
It is very Marshally with good TW bloom and harmonics. It has ferocious mids and bottoms!!! Due to the voicing of it, on a A/B to my K60C, The K60C sounded like the Concordes mousey little sister. I was using a checkerboard front 70's Marshall 4X12 with G12-65's. Overall I liked it but, $4-5000 it's not! I understand the amount of work that goes into one of these but, I just wouldn't spend that much on a one trick pony like the Concorde. It distorts very early (around 2 with heavy pick attack)in the fast mode. I expected the gradual mode to be much less gainy but it wasn't. The gradual mode is much more atune to rhythm and bluesy leads. I didn't try my Strat with it . I only used my Les Paul. Maybe with a strat the cleans are easier to get. Overall I liked it but, I am not Hogy's target audience due to the fact I wouldn't spend $4000.00 on an amp...especially one I can build for about $1000.00 or less for myself. I think The Gear Page fatcats are the group most likely wooed by this amp. It has a very strange setup. It is very similar to a TW express except for just before the PI, he sticks in a CF stage to pummel the PI mercilessly!
It goes...Input stage>Tone stack> Recovery gain stage>Gain stage>CF> PI. I have a similar design I am working on that has one more gain stage and moves the tone stack after the CF that was laid out on Dave Funks book on page 105. If it weren't for the tone stack after the initial gain stage I'd say this is the same amp that Dave had in his book years ago. I guess it's all in the family.
Allynmey wrote:Hi Omar, I had the amp for about a week to check it out
It is very Marshally with good TW bloom and harmonics. It has ferocious mids and bottoms!!! Due to the voicing of it, on a A/B to my K60C, The K60C sounded like the Concordes mousey little sister. I was using a checkerboard front 70's Marshall 4X12 with G12-65's. Overall I liked it but, $4-5000 it's not! I understand the amount of work that goes into one of these but, I just wouldn't spend that much on a one trick pony like the Concorde. It distorts very early (around 2 with heavy pick attack)in the fast mode. I expected the gradual mode to be much less gainy but it wasn't. The gradual mode is much more atune to rhythm and bluesy leads. I didn't try my Strat with it . I only used my Les Paul. Maybe with a strat the cleans are easier to get. Overall I liked it but, I am not Hogy's target audience due to the fact I wouldn't spend $4000.00 on an amp...especially one I can build for about $1000.00 or less for myself. I think The Gear Page fatcats are the group most likely wooed by this amp. It has a very strange setup. It is very similar to a TW express except for just before the PI, he sticks in a CF stage to pummel the PI mercilessly!
It goes...Input stage>Tone stack> Recovery gain stage>Gain stage>CF> PI. I have a similar design I am working on that has one more gain stage and moves the tone stack after the CF that was laid out on Dave Funks book on page 105. If it weren't for the tone stack after the initial gain stage I'd say this is the same amp that Dave had in his book years ago. I guess it's all in the family.
Allynmey
interesting post here. is the TW Francesca a "Input stage>Tone stack> Recovery gain stage>Gain stage>CF> PI"?
( CF means cathode follower? )
"he sticks in a CF stage to pummel the PI mercilessly!" you mean just like a plexi, right?
Mark
. I only used my Les Paul. Maybe with a strat the cleans are easier to get. Overall I liked it but, I am not Hogy's target audience due to the fact I wouldn't spend $4000.00 on an amp...especially one I can build for about $1000.00 or less for myself. I think The Gear Page fatcats are the group most likely wooed by this amp. It has a very strange setup. It is very similar to a TW express except for just before the PI, he sticks in a CF stage to pummel the PI mercilessly! 