Holy Aggressive!!!!

[Bryan Cox]

Hey guys,

I have a question concerning just how aggressive these amps SHOULD be.

I have an amp that began life as an exact Express clone under the name Tonic Vapour. Got it used off Reverb and had to send it to Paul Ruby for a major renovation. Then I put NOS Siemens EL34 and Amperex 12AX7 in it. I play it through an old Laney cab loaded with Scumback M75/H75 in an X pattern.

I recently purchased a Ceriatone Liver-pull that has been upgraded with a Heyboer OT and a MV (which I turn all the way up to remove from the circuit). It’s an absolutely gorgeous build but it has a serious ground issue and hums like crazy with single coils. This is going to Paul Ruby for repair, as well.

I play through both these amps with a Les Paul Supreme (59/JB), a G&L ASAT Fullerton Deluxe, and a G&L Legacy.

These amps have an INSANE amount of gain…too much IMHO. With my LP, I was in Iron Maiden/Ratt territory with the amp volume at 9 o’clock. And when I backed off my guitar volume to almost nothing (it was quiet like a fart in a tin can) it couldn’t get a clean tone. This was the case for both the amps.

Full disclosure, I know my pickups are hot and the Scumback break up early. But I just feel I should be able to get past 9:00 on the volume before it’s just too much gain.

I plan to try a 12AY7 in V1 to tame the gain. I’d like to get closer to Billy Gibbons territory. Do you think the 12AY7 will get me there?

[RockinRocket]

I can get to about 2oclock on vol with eq/presence at noonish and get a clean tone by rolling off the vol and strumming softly with my express.

[Roe]

I get the best result with vintage, low output pickups, influding 8k PAFs with a2 magnets (or ua5). Too strong magnets gives a hard attack and hard treble.

to get cleanup you need the right audio taper pots for volumes, on guitar and amp. and the Pacific OT helps greatly with cleanup and dynamics.

[Bryan Cox]

Thank you for the feedback, guys.

[geetarpicker]

12AYZ tubes in both V1 and V2 will bring the gain down considerably. IF you are using humbuckers try to find VIPots which come on much slower than most 500k pots. This will help quite a bit to get a nice clean tone. Without the very slow rising taper of VIPots (or original Centrlabs) it is much trickier to dial in a clean sound as most 500k pots come on too quickly.

[Mark]

12AYZ tubes in both V1 and V2 will bring the gain down considerably. IF you are using humbuckers try to find VIPots which come on much slower than most 500k pots. This will help quite a bit to get a nice clean tone. Without the very slow rising taper of VIPots (or original Centrlabs) it is much trickier to dial in a clean sound as most 500k pots come on too quickly.

Have you tried the VIP pots?

What do you think of them?

How do they compare to the Gibson vintage pots?

[Bryan Cox]

12AYZ tubes in both V1 and V2 will bring the gain down considerably. IF you are using humbuckers try to find VIPots which come on much slower than most 500k pots. This will help quite a bit to get a nice clean tone. Without the very slow rising taper of VIPots (or original Centrlabs) it is much trickier to dial in a clean sound as most 500k pots come on too quickly.

Thank you! I am going to try that. I also replaced the JB in my Les Paul Supreme with a Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pro. Much happier with that but the amps are still far too aggressive. Thanks for the tip, guys.

[GlideOn]

Install an RC Peaker of 470k/470p or 220k/330pf after the coupling cap on cascaded side.

All of that gain will now be concentrated in the high mids, keeping the lows nice and surgical.

I Trainwrecked a mid 60s Bassman circuit unused side of V2 12AX7 triode and had that similar "globs of gain" and was kinda wooly and wild, personally liked the 220k/330pf combo best as it was still trebly and very Fender in flavor, complimented the 100k slope resistor, different feel than a typical Marshall.

[Roe]

Install an RC Peaker of 470k/470p or 220k/330pf after the coupling cap on cascaded side.

exactly where is the "cascaded side"?

[GlideOn]

What Trainwreck are you currently using? Do you have a layout or schematic?

They all vary a bit as far as their values go.

[GlideOn]

Install an RC Peaker of 470k/470p or 220k/330pf after the coupling cap on cascaded side.

exactly where is the "cascaded side"?

Your amp is the Ceriatine LiverPull, correct?

Let's see the layout:

TW-Liverpull-1Dec2018.jpg

See how pin 1 of V1 goes into pin 2 of V2 via the .0022 cap?

That's the Cascade. Running one gain stage into another.

Trainwrecks, Marshall JMPs, Mesa Boogie type amps all do this to generate their high gain feel.

Trainwrecks typically use very little attenuation/voltage dividing for a more "balls-to-the-wall" kinda gain that is very rich and full frequency...as you may have noticed.

Something like a Marshall JMP uses a moderate amount of attenuation, specifically their 470k/470pf "peaker" that helps give the signature Marshall upper-mid focus. It's a grid stopper with a cap over it, pretty much.

If you wanted to reduce the amount of lows in the amp, you could try reducing the V1 cathode of 22uf to a more modest 5uf or 2.2uf.

Or reduce the .1uf coupler going into V3 to a more modest .022uf.

It's likely however you really rather like this full, rich sound but just desire a bit more mid-shaping. Some teeth to it all.

To take a page from Marshall, try implementing a "Peaker."

I found that 220k/330pf value compliments the more "Fender" aspects of a Trainwreck quite well, while injecting just enough of a Marshall attitude into it.

If it were me, I would try it a V2 after the .1uf before pin 7 of V3.

To go a step further, try .022 coupling caps including the V1 coupler and V2 coupler. Going a bit from the Trainwreck though, much more Marshall or "Billy Gibbons" for sure.

There's a small amount of signal loss, but it's still 98% as loud as before. However that can translate into more usability for your needs, lower and higher volumes.

[Roe]

Install an RC Peaker of 470k/470p or 220k/330pf after the coupling cap on cascaded side.

exactly where is the "cascaded side"?

Your amp is the Ceriatine LiverPull, correct?

Let's see the layout:

TW-Liverpull-1Dec2018.jpg

See how pin 1 of V1 goes into pin 2 of V2 via the .0022 cap?

...

Something like a Marshall JMP uses a moderate amount of attenuation, specifically their 470k/470pf "peaker" that helps give the signature Marshall upper-mid focus. It's a grid stopper with a cap over it, pretty much.

If you wanted to reduce the amount of lows in the amp, you could try reducing the V1 cathode of 22uf to a more modest 5uf or 2.2uf.

Or reduce the .1uf coupler going into V3 to a more modest .022uf.

It's likely however you really rather like this full, rich sound but just desire a bit more mid-shaping. Some teeth to it all.

To take a page from Marshall, try implementing a "Peaker."

I found that 220k/330pf value compliments the more "Fender" aspects of a Trainwreck quite well, while injecting just enough of a Marshall attitude into it.

If it were me, I would try it a V2 after the .1uf before pin 7 of V3.

To go a step further, try .022 coupling caps including the V1 coupler and V2 coupler. Going a bit from the Trainwreck though, much more Marshall or "Billy Gibbons" for sure.

There's a small amount of signal loss, but it's still 98% as loud as before. However that can translate into more usability for your needs, lower and higher volumes.

That's what I suspected - thanks!

One of my wrecks started as a Ceriatone express (only chassis, PT and one board seems to survice, pluss a pots perhaps)

the .1uf into the phase inverter is overkill, since a 1n5 or 2n2 is sufficient here (https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/the-long-tail-pair). the big cap only invites blocking distortion and muddy lows.

On one of my amps I've added grid resistors, which seems to make the amp more stable without undermining sound or response. I've used no grid resistor on the first gain stage to prevent hiss but added a 820r or so on the second gainstage, which works together with the volume pot. PI has 68k on both grids, whereas el34s has 47k. the result is tighter bass and less blocking distortion than the other amp without these grid resistors

[GlideOn]

exactly where is the "cascaded side"?

Your amp is the Ceriatine LiverPull, correct?

Let's see the layout:

TW-Liverpull-1Dec2018.jpg

See how pin 1 of V1 goes into pin 2 of V2 via the .0022 cap?

...

Something like a Marshall JMP uses a moderate amount of attenuation, specifically their 470k/470pf "peaker" that helps give the signature Marshall upper-mid focus. It's a grid stopper with a cap over it, pretty much.

If you wanted to reduce the amount of lows in the amp, you could try reducing the V1 cathode of 22uf to a more modest 5uf or 2.2uf.

Or reduce the .1uf coupler going into V3 to a more modest .022uf.

It's likely however you really rather like this full, rich sound but just desire a bit more mid-shaping. Some teeth to it all.

To take a page from Marshall, try implementing a "Peaker."

I found that 220k/330pf value compliments the more "Fender" aspects of a Trainwreck quite well, while injecting just enough of a Marshall attitude into it.

If it were me, I would try it a V2 after the .1uf before pin 7 of V3.

To go a step further, try .022 coupling caps including the V1 coupler and V2 coupler. Going a bit from the Trainwreck though, much more Marshall or "Billy Gibbons" for sure.

There's a small amount of signal loss, but it's still 98% as loud as before. However that can translate into more usability for your needs, lower and higher volumes.

That's what I suspected - thanks!

One of my wrecks started as a Ceriatone express (only chassis, PT and one board seems to survice, pluss a pots perhaps)

the .1uf into the phase inverter is overkill, since a 1n5 or 2n2 is sufficient here (https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/the-long-tail-pair). the big cap only invites blocking distortion and muddy lows.

On one of my amps I've added grid resistors, which seems to make the amp more stable without undermining sound or response. I've used no grid resistor on the first gain stage to prevent hiss but added a 820r or so on the second gainstage, which works together with the volume pot. PI has 68k on both grids, whereas el34s has 47k. the result is tighter bass and less blocking distortion than the other amp without these grid resistors

Yessir, these Trainwrecks originally built by Ken Fisher were done in the same spirit, so don't be afraid to do as such and reach into your bags of tricks to do what you want to do with it.

He likely started with a Silverface Fender circuit and one of the most common things to do with that is reduce the size of the coupling caps throughout. Bass is great for cleans, not so much for lead guitar. He also used different transformers both oversized and undersized, combined different types of caps to gain tonal benefits of both, different types of resistors throughout. So many amounts of small X factors that were probably helping tame the gain and a mass manufactured amp simply copying one of them may not account for these small changes. No two of his amps were completely alike. Crazy amounts of cork sniffing to some but a genius nonetheless. His results were/are indisputable.

I only wished to add my .02c in borrowing a bit from Marshall. Marshall uses moderate sized coupling caps (see 022 everywhere inc PI) and aggressively cuts bass via V1, V2 Cathode and voltage dividers/mixers with those peaker caps.

I think Trainwrecks are setup to be a little juicier than Marshall, not quite so dry in the lows. Helps to keep a decent amount of saturation going from having moderately sized preamp cathode caps.

On mine I tried a simple grid stopper, then dumping gain via resistor to ground but it never sounded quite right as it was either too much or too little. Tried the peaker for giggles and it did the trick by allowing highs and mids to pass, lows and bass be attenuated. Tamed that beast!! Still absolutely rips for lead tones especially when the power tubes start to saturate