Output Impedance

[UR12]

In regards to Mr Weber I thought all his kits came with his own trannys that are manufactured in China.

Hi Dana, True in his kits he uses his own Chinese Trannies, But if you go to his site, he is also a dealer for MM and Heyboer. I have considered his kits, but if I did go with one, I'd personally leave out his trannies. I have not heard the best things about them. A buddy of mine built the Java from his site and ordered the full kit. It took him about 7 weeks of playing it, then he ordered Heyboers and was much happier with the amp.

To be quite honest I haven't tried the MM trannys and if the price you posted is correct then I will most definately keep using the Pacifics that Ken speced himself or the Heyboers that Tonslut sells at a substantial savings. I just find it hard to believe that an Express can sound that much better with the more costly MM trannys. They are extremely over the top with either the Pacifics or the Tonsluts. Save a little money and take the little lady out to dinner (Probably a lot better payoff in the future) . Just my 2 cents

[daringrebe]

[quote="UR12 To be quite honest I haven't tried the MM trannys and if the price you posted is correct then I will most definately keep using the Pacifics that Ken speced himself or the Heyboers that Tonslut sells at a substantial savings. I just find it hard to believe that an Express can sound that much better with the more costly MM trannys. They are extremely over the top with either the Pacifics or the Tonsluts. Save a little money and take the little lady out to dinner . Just my 2 cents[/quote]

I can understand, but I really want to see what the hype is about. Nothing against Kens original specs, but I am just looking for the best sounding amp that I can get for myself. I have personally never had the chance to play through an original TW, nor will I ever have that chance (most likely). So, I'll take my lowly, little clone (LOL) and look for the tone that can make me do things that are normally reserved for my wife. The few times that I can find good samples of a TW on the web, it is always music that I do not play anyway. It is rough being more of a Prog type guitarist in a world that believes that the only good tone comes from playing blues...LOL. Anyway I must try the hype, for the other express clone I have, I will try the Tonesluts, they ARE considerably more affordable. Best Regards.

Darin

[UR12]

Well keep us posted on the MMs and let us know your findings if you get to use the MMs on one amp and the Tonesluts on another. That should be a good comparison.

Best of luck!!

[martins3325]

.. I will most definately keep using the Pacifics that Ken speced himself ..

Interesting..I dont see the Pacifics talked about here much..I know Glen has said thats what is in his original..and his serves as the measuring stick by which all clones or real ones are compared in my opinion. I have them in mine..which came from a Two-Rock Ruby kit...does/will Pacific still sell these..I have the part numbers right on my transformers..wonder how much is so? I agree the MM sound brutal expensive..I kinda wonder why more people dont try to source the real deal Stancor A3801--or Pacific-- and go with what was actually used in the originals for less money than even a Toneslut..let alone a MM.

By the way does anyone know what Brand/Model the Power Transformer in Francesca is? Dont think Ive ever seen it mentioned here before.

[UR12]

.. I will most definately keep using the Pacifics that Ken speced himself ..

Interesting.....does/will Pacific still sell these..I have the part numbers right on my transformers..wonder how much is so?

By the way does anyone know what Brand/Model the Power Transformer in Francesca is? Dont think Ive ever seen it mentioned here before.

Yes to your first question. Just call them and give them the number and they will sell it to you. The power is also a Pacific in Francesca IIRC. Although either the Heyboer or the pacific will work just fine. I think the taps on the Pacifics are a bit lower voltage than the Heyboers if I am not mistaken.

['67_Plexi]

but the 3rd and 5th harmonic content is around 20% less, which means the amp sounds less aggressive (or bity to think of a better word).
Alan.

Really??? So how exactly did you arrive at the figure of 20% reduction in 3rd and 5th harmonics. Is it measured, calculated.......................was it on one amp or an average of a bunch of them? Which trannys were you testing to get this figure?

quote]


I answered the dudes question with my own findings from real world test scenerios, nothing more. For what it's worth if you model the PP O/P stage in software, you get results in the same direction, though the values may be somewhat different.

All test equipment, figures and theory aside, the description of the tonal changes is what he was really looking for.

If you don't agree with them, cool....it's all good.

[UR12]

but the 3rd and 5th harmonic content is around 20% less, which means the amp sounds less aggressive (or bity to think of a better word).
Alan.


I answered the dudes question with my own findings from real world test scenerios, nothing more. For what it's worth if you model the PP O/P stage in software, you get results in the same direction, though the values may be somewhat different.

All test equipment, figures and theory aside, the description of the tonal changes is what he was really looking for.

If you don't agree with them, cool....it's all good.

As you say it is all cool. I just question sometimes where people come up with these arbitrary numbers without stating how they arrived at those conclusions. Just because it looks good on the modelers doesn't mean you will have the same results in real life without taking into account a lot of other variables. Anyone can throw out numbers on the internet that sound impressive and if you're going to throw out statements like "20% reduction in 3rd and 5th harmonics" I don't think it is too much to ask how you got those numbers. In the real world it is possible to change a 5.2k tranny to a 6.6k and hear no difference at all depending on the two trannys actual measured primary impedances.

[Richie]

I answered the dudes question with my own findings from real world test scenerios, nothing more. For what it's worth if you model the PP O/P stage in software, you get results in the same direction

real world test scenerios, and model the PP O/P stage in software.. if its modeled,thats not much of a real world test..
anyway, the 5.2k seems to be more aggressive or raw sounding,and the 6.6k a bit smoother sounding. Depending on the impeadence,the transformers frequencies will change or have an effect on how it sounds.
So many things come into play,and it might be best to just try one or the other against the same amp using the opposite,and then you can tell by ear, and by how the guitar responds to your playing.
I'd say if you took 5 people, they might all not agree on which one sonds best to them.
Then different type transformers,with the same impeadence may also have a different sound between them. Might be due to how they are wound,type wire,metal used.. and all the other factors.
The one good thing is.. there are many good sounding trannys to choose from,for the wreck amps

['67_Plexi]

but the 3rd and 5th harmonic content is around 20% less, which means the amp sounds less aggressive (or bity to think of a better word).
Alan.


I answered the dudes question with my own findings from real world test scenerios, nothing more. For what it's worth if you model the PP O/P stage in software, you get results in the same direction, though the values may be somewhat different.

All test equipment, figures and theory aside, the description of the tonal changes is what he was really looking for.

If you don't agree with them, cool....it's all good.

As you say it is all cool. I just question sometimes where people come up with these arbitrary numbers without stating how they arrived at those conclusions. Just because it looks good on the modelers doesn't mean you will have the same results in real life without taking into account a lot of other variables. Anyone can throw out numbers on the internet that sound impressive and if you're going to throw out statements like "20% reduction in 3rd and 5th harmonics" I don't think it is too much to ask how you got those numbers. In the real world it is possible to change a 5.2k tranny to a 6.6k and hear no difference at all depending on the two trannys actual measured primary impedances.

Sorry for not replying sooner.....

It's totally legit to question where figures came from. However, I did answer that, when I said from real word scenerios, meaning from actually having amplifiers on the bench with test equipment. I live with my hands inside amplifier chassis all day every day, I have no reason to just make it up.
Would putting the exact figures and methods used really have been beneficial to the original poster ? He was asking about tonal differences. I just gave some background as to why I felt the differences happened based on my experience. And if you do model it, it validates my findings.

The reasonable assumptions I was making was that a) this is the same amplifier and b) it's a decent working build with no issues. c)Nothing else but the transformer impedance is changing.

At the end of the day, I was only trying to help the guy by giving him a direct answer to his question. He really wasn't asking anything technical, so why bog the thread down with information that is probably irrelevant.
Again, no harm, no foul.

['67_Plexi]

I answered the dudes question with my own findings from real world test scenerios, nothing more. For what it's worth if you model the PP O/P stage in software, you get results in the same direction

real world test scenerios, and model the PP O/P stage in software.. if its modeled,thats not much of a real world test..
anyway, the 5.2k seems to be more aggressive or raw sounding,and the 6.6k a bit smoother sounding. Depending on the impeadence,the transformers frequencies will change or have an effect on how it sounds.
So many things come into play,and it might be best to just try one or the other against the same amp using the opposite,and then you can tell by ear, and by how the guitar responds to your playing.
I'd say if you took 5 people, they might all not agree on which one sonds best to them.
Then different type transformers,with the same impeadence may also have a different sound between them. Might be due to how they are wound,type wire,metal used.. and all the other factors.
The one good thing is.. there are many good sounding trannys to choose from,for the wreck amps

It wasn't based on modeling, see my post above. The modelling just validated the real world results, thats all.

Even though you challenged me in your first sentence (though you misunderstood what I had said), you verified what I had found in your second.

From a personal standpoint, I would disagree with your last sentence, I've tried several different O/T specifications and models and have found only one that worked really well side by side with an original outstanding sounding Wreck. All this is just an opinion though. Everyones mileage is different. Everyones an expert on the internet

[UR12]

He really wasn't asking anything technical, so why bog the thread down with information that is probably irrelevant.
Again, no harm, no foul.

Making the statement that you reduce the 3rd and 5th harmonics by 20% seems like a pretty technical reply to a non technical question if you ask me. Of course I am no expert like you. I also never implied that you were making anything up. I just thought that since you had all of this "expert knowledge" you might like to share a little bit about how you arrived at your findings. I guess I was wrong. Last time I checked this was a public forum and your answer is viewed by people other than the original poster.

Everyones an expert on the internet

WTF is that supposed to mean? Some people are legends in their own mind too!!

[jaysg]

So...bottom line...no frequency analyzer involved.

[Sven]

Greetings,

Hm, Englishman nicely and elegantly answered a very interesting question about a difference between 5,3k and 6,6k OT primary imp. for a TW amp (something that was puzzling me for quite some time), and, gee, now we see him pushed around here for that kindness. Ts, ts, ts, ... no good deed shall go unpunished ...

Keep up the good work, '67

[Richie]

I've tried several different O/T specifications and models and have found only one that worked really well side by side with an original outstanding sounding Wreck.

Even the Wrecks used different transformers,and Ken experimented with many others. What was the outstanding sounding wreck useing for an OT?

[dartanion]

Let's not forget that a transformer has no real set impedance. It's just a ratio derived from the windings figured against a load impedance. Then let's look at the load on the OT, a speaker. A speaker's impedance changes with frequency and is constantly changing as you play through it. The impedance can change quite wildly to over 4-5x its advertised impedance, so how can we really describe in any quantitative terms how much the OT really imparts in tonal changes?