Essential components to recreate the EXPRESS sound....

[redshark]

What is in your opinion the 5 most important things to get if you want a succesful express build and as close as posible to a KF original?

1. Transformers: A set of old Stancors would be nice but Allyn Meyer's pacifics are great!!

2. Tubes: A well matched set of Siemens EL-34 are the most comon power tubes in originals but vintage mullards or telefunkens are great. For preamps most use tungsram and Ei but amperex and mullards are very good too. Put special attention to V1.

3. Capacitors: Mallory filter caps are pricey but worth it. Mallory PVC for preamp are the ones but....what to use now that we don't have 0.1 uf anymore?

4. Lead dress: Using correct wire and shaping it as close as posible to an original is a practice that helps get a great sounding amp.

5. Correct chassis and good quality components: Since the amp is unstable by nature having the correct specs in the chassis can help a lot, like it or not emissions play a role in this design and spacing out wires and components is a good practice. Also the best quality switches and pots and jacks can guarantee a service free operation for a long time.

That is my opinion....do you agree or disagree? What did I miss?

[Bob S]

I've never had the warm fuzzy feeling about my Express clone.
It's spent more time on the bench than in the line up.
So with that in mind...
I agree with all of those points - even the order of importance.
Although it's all important. Everything matters.
As soon as you think "that's close enough" you're in trouble.
Definitely not a build for the novice.
Think I'll gut mine & start again - again.

[jelle]

Tough one to get to sound good. Ballpark is easy.

[Bob S]

Yeah exactly Jelle.
My OCD tendencies don't do ballpark.

[Blackburn]

I wouldn't necessarily say you 'Need to have' Stancors, unless the 80s TW tone was what you were after. I'd rather go with something else like Pacifics, personally. Stancors really weren't the highest quality. I think that's why Ken felt the need to grade his trannies and use the best ones. And although many TWs came with Tungsrams, Ken didn't actually prefer these. They were just chosen because they were deemed the best sounding newer tubes Ken bought in bulk. The same for the RFT and EI. He felt there were better choices available and to find the best for yourself, like he put in his brochure.

[sliberty]

Don't forget to use the correct wire color.....

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, a lot of the folk lore about Express tone and the parts used is just bull shit. I've heard Express clones built with Mallory 150's, cheap Xicon radial filter caps or Nichicon axial caps, and Alpha pots, and they sound as close as any other clone that uses proper Orange Drops, pricey Mallory filter caps and those expensive sealed pots. Mojo man! Yea, right.

IMO, the tubes are the magic sauce. And that doesn't mean that you need to have Tungsram pre's and Seimans finals. It means you have to have a great ear, and know exactly what tonal elements you are chasing. And then you need a pretty fat wallet and lots of patience so that you can try dozens of different choices.

Frankly, I love the Express as a platform, but in its stock form, I am not a huge fan. Too compressed, too much gain, and not enough range on the volume pot before it all goes splat. Both of my Express amps have some minor mods applied that make it much more to my liking (Allyn would hate them ). This is why we build amps, isn't it? To tweak them to OUR taste? But an Express is a really good starting point.

The nice thing is that signal caps are cheap, so go ahead and try a few different types. Build with one type, then after playing for a week, swap them for a different type, and see what you think. Filters are a different story - those Mallory caps are ridiculously priced unless you plan to sell the amp and want it to be visually very close to the real deal. But if it is for you, use something else. It will be fine. I have Spragues in both of mine. They are medium priced. But I have used those cheaper filters in my Rockets and the result was stunning tone (not because of the cheap filters - in spite of them). Others have used cap cans (Dana I believe) for a neater look, and been very happy with the results also.

Don't buy into the mojo bull shit. Just build, play, tweak, play, repeat.

YMMV

Steve

[redshark]

ha!! sliberty, correct color wire goes in 4.Lead dress....

Yes, Siemens, tungsrams and Ei were used in most of the express amps because those were the tubes that in the 80's groove tubes used to label as their tubes. Also mullard, telefunken and amperex were considered NOS even in the 80's and without flebay they were hard to get.
My experience is that tungram and Ei sound great. In the first express I built I used all mallory PVC but my filters were F&T's and I can't say they didn't sound nice. Then later I built a rocket and in that one I used mallory TC filters and that amp sounds awesome so in my next express I think I will spend the dough on those caps. I would like suggestions for the 0.1uf (3). Should I use mallory150?

[Blackburn]

ha!! sliberty, correct color wire goes in 4.Lead dress....

Yes, Siemens, tungsrams and Ei were used in most of the express amps because those were the tubes that in the 80's groove tubes used to label as their tubes. Also mullard, telefunken and amperex were considered NOS even in the 80's and without flebay they were hard to get.
My experience is that tungram and Ei sound great. In the first express I built I used all mallory PVC but my filters were F&T's and I can't say they didn't sound nice. Then later I built a rocket and in that one I used mallory TC filters and that amp sounds awesome so in my next express I think I will spend the dough on those caps. I would like suggestions for the 0.1uf (3). Should I use mallory150?

My advice would be to grab some from Bob S. while he has them. I've already reserved some.

[redshark]

His aren't in spec, those are 400v. They should be 630v.

[selloutrr]

Not to throw a wrench in your plans but even just the right parts are not enough. It's knowing which tolorence and combinations to use. Remember everything has a tolerance of +/- 20%. It's not luck that makes a TW. Keep in mind the forum is basing every clone off of only several amplifiers and just pictures not metered values. most of the ~100 amps had some sort of special voicing you can't always see just by looking.
Your above plan will make the typical clone TAG had made for years. The rest of the parts aren't possible to source. i.e. resistors, pots, switches, chassis, sockets, pilot light, MOV, boards... Etc.

Tubes: make sure you have a half dozen or more sets to voice the amp with and plan on spending around $450 in NOS tubes per finished amp possibly much more if you want to do it correctly. When buying NOS tubes it's worth the extra $ to buy from a trusted source.
Lots of fakes due to the $$$ in old tubes.

Hint: any part make sure test. Don't just assume its good because it looks new.
It's cost me thousands in dead parts.

[MCK]

It's knowing which tolorence and combinations to use. Remember everything has a tolerance of +/- 20%. It's not luck that makes a TW. Keep in mind the forum is basing every clone off of only several amplifiers and just pictures not metered values. most of the ~100 amps had some sort of special voicing you can't always see just by looking.

So to expand on selloutrr's wise words above, I think the most essential component in getting the Express sound is a great pair of ears. Without them you can't get anywhere close to where you need to be even if you had the parts taken out of a real Express and given to you to do a rebuild.

[selloutrr]

Even more then ears. It's knowing what to listen for how to make the adjustments and ultimately the vision of the finished product you want.

[tsutt]

And how does ones ears get trained for the tw tone when one has never heard one in person. And how many people actually have? not possible so i have agree with sliberty on this.

[redshark]

If you have a chance listen to a real one (Ken Fischer build), then listen to a bunch of videos of real ones on you tube to have an idea of how the amp performs. Then when you build, test every component before you use it (something we all should do when building). Some components have more mojo than others. I know there are some legendary KF stories out there but really, the components that are key are the ones I mentioned. I will also mention here the pots although it will be imposible to get the old ones ken used and the modern taper is diferent to the old taper. I used CTS from mojo in the express and the sealed ones(I don't remember the name) for the rocket PCE?? and both performed great.
I have to say selloutrr that I have heard a few express clones from TAG and some are closer to the real thing that others. I can see that the diferent practices of the builders and the more original components the better the amp sounds.

[selloutrr]

Red you sound pretty confident you have it all figured out. So are you asking or telling? If you need help I suggest asking / researching the archives if you are telling... it's all been on a thread many many times in the past.

As far as YouTube. After the lossy file compression, sample rate and device playing the data it's no longer a "true" source of tone. If my express sounded like any clip on YouTube I'd strip it for tubes and give it away.. Maybe burn the cabinet to stay warm

JM has several TW on hand to voice from including a couple of Ken's personal amps. that is a good part of what you pay for in a reissue TW is knowning what you get is going to sound like a TW. The other benefits are value of the investment. The clones sell used for less than the cost of the parts they take to build. I'll be happy if the amps JM builds for me sound close to Marcella the '90 express I picked up last may.