Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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rooster
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Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

I ordered a very small mosfet mic pre/booster a few weeks ago for a ribbon mic. It claimed to be a remarkably clean, simple audio path, 20db boost device. I had purchased the Rode Powerplug-D some time ago and it was virtually worthless for this application so I was a little dubious. But the reviews were good so I pulled the trigger. Any, it came and it literally blew me away in sonics and quietness. Its called the 'Fethead' in honor of its mosfet core.

OK, I then went to the builders website in the Netherlands to poke around, to see who these guys were... and found these devices. (See pic)
The one for the 12AX7 sells for $27 delivered, and, yes, I ordered one to try in one of my Express's V1 spot.

I will let you know what I think when I get it and install it. Apparently the device is/was their first product and it is selling briskly in audio circles. Oh, if you go to their site, you will see in developement, another product that is designed to sit either under a turntable or studio monitor. It is a system that uses very strong neodimium magnets. So the idea is that your components will actually be suspended in the air. !! Man, these guys are very creative people to say the least. I mean, who wouldn't want to have their studio monitors floating off the stands just for the look alone!!! 8) Oh, they are: www.tritonaudio.com
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rooster
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

Oh yeah, I ordered the one second from the left. Apparently there is a dampening ring made of something that sits between the tube and the side wall of the half-shield. ??
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Structo
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by Structo »

So this supposedly cools the tube plus dampens it.
Looks cool! :D
Tom

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rooster
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

OK, this piece arrived and I installed it. I quickly realized that there were a few things would maybe make it better for the Express so I just dug into it. The folks at Tritonaudio were emailing me with help and questions, too. Overall a good experience.

Any, here's a pic or two and I will explain later what installing this device did to my Express.
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hairyandy
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by hairyandy »

I'm intrigued. That would probably come in handy with a EF86 as well...

Andy
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rawnster
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rawnster »

Rooster, how does it affect the tone?
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

Alright, let me try to comment on the results a bit. (And Andy, YES!, I think this would be a good retro/adaptation for an EF86.)

OK first off, understand that when everything is installed, the tube socket is floating, cushioned by the silicone sandwich if you will. There is mass, the sheild itself, that is also actually floating. Here I mean that you can grab the sheild and flex/move it a bit - because it is cushioned by the same silicone sandwich. The pics should explain this. And you need to adjust the two screws that attach the socket to the sheild - not too tight, not too loose - because this determines the isolation of the tube. My 3/4" socket hole has been exaggerated with a Greenlee hole bit, to the next size over 3/4" - just enough to make sure the top of the tube socket DOES NOT touch the chassis. (The tube socket is basically suspended in the silicone, away from the chassis.)

OK, how does it work? Well, I can turn my amp on, set the volume at 12, and tap on the bare chassis - anywhere but on the tube itself - and not hear any added noise. Very different than it was if you have an amp like this. :D

The tone? Well, if a vibrating tube is *TONE*, then I would tell you that I don't have any. 8) It is just all tube function over here, no added tube shake noise. And here I guess the way to determine if this is for you is to take your head and put it in a different room maybe - not just a few feet away, because the tube isolation is that improved - and play yur gtr. If you can't hear any difference then this is not for you. It is a HiFi thing/application and not for everybody, I'm sure. Honestly, now that I hear it, there is no way I would not have it in my amp.

Oh, and don't misunderstand, my Tungsram 12AX7 is a very quiet and not very rattle prone version. So yes, it only got better. Just tapping on your chassis should give you an idea if this is for you I think.
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

This is becoming an very amazing ride. 8) I spent almost two hours playng the amp today at various volumes.

Here's a question for any and all of you that have either built one of these or played a real one: Have you EVER run into an amp that had a preamp tube that was so sensitive to vibration?

Hey, if you have an Express and its something that you are digging, you need to separate the head case away for the speaker box - really separate it - and see if you dig what you are hearing more. This may not be for everyone, but I am just over the top about the change in this amp - and I loved it before! I realize this is a HiFi adaptation, the tube dampener, but I have to say that this is one amp that needs to have its V1 extremely free of vibration. Man, until I heard this I would never have believed such a thing could affect the overall sound of a gtr amp. OK, ranting over........
Last edited by rooster on Thu May 14, 2009 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tubetwang
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by Tubetwang »

Thanks Rooster!

I'm ordering!! 8)
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by Zippy »

rooster wrote:Any, here's a pic or two and I will explain later what installing this device did to my Express.
Which one are you using? The socket shown on the left or right?

If you didn't need the (alleged) cooling, might you get the same isolation effect with similar mounting of a traditional socket? You can get Sorbothane and similar materials in sheet form - from there it is a matter of a gasket punch.

Group "build" project???
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fishy
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by fishy »

Rooster,
The price tag alone makes it worthy of consideration.
Definitely seems worth the effort to try.

And they look cool too :)
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rooster
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

Cool. And Zippy, yes, I thought about this. What I came up with to sandwich between the chassis and tube socket would affect things for the better. But the mass of the sheild brings something more. As you tap on the chassis with the device installed, I know it may seem like a person couldn't sense this(?), but you do get a sense of something different going on. Its maybe like putting a weight on top of the chassis and then tapping. Can you see how this might change things?

Also, as to the source for the white silicone material that I used? Well, that would be BiMart - and it was actually a Christmas gift to my wife. ?? Let me explain. I was considering what to use here and I went thru all my things - nada! But then somethng caught my eye in the kitchen. My wife's sister had given her these two pot holders. We rarely use them and frankly they look kinda odd. They have a hole in one corner so you can hang them up and they have a bumpy pattern to them front and back. Where we do use them is to put a hot pot down on a table or counter. .....So they start out as maybe 9X9, and now one of them is 7X7. :lol: . Eh, it's still usable I figure, so shoot me. :lol: . Anyway they can't cost very much and its the right stuff - soft enough, heat resistant, and fireproof! Go BiMart!

OK, tubetwang, et all, I will walk you thru what else I did to modify the piece for the TW install - and yes, I know you are all handy and adaptive cats. I will give you more detail later if you like.

Basically, the main task was adapting one of the socket types that I was already using in the TW, the Belton socket. This has the 3/4" diameter body and the correct pinout direction for the TW build. The supplied ceramic Russian socket (the one on the left in the above pics) was too big diameter-wise and had the wrong pin layout/direction. Follow? OK, so I had to open up the crimped metal that housed the socket itself - because I had to pull the socket out and reverse it. Yeah, I had to make it BOTTOM mountable. You can see the results in those pics, the socket on the right - this is not stock, it is altered as described. You can see my silicone sandwich meat (hot pad) there too, this was cut out with an Exacto knife. (Cut the hole as tight as possible.) The holes for the bolts are just drilled - and it is better if it is a small drill so that the bolts are grabbed by the silicone during install.

Also to prep the chassis, I used a Greenlee stepped bit and just went to the next opening size. Nothing radical here, just enough so the the top of the socket doesn't touch the chassis. You could just as easily do this with a rat tail file and check it as you go. The idea is to 'float' the socket as much as possible. But remember you must still be able to pull the tube out when you need to. And here the socket has a lip on it, pretty much 360 degrees around it, that the silicone sandwich has to match. Again, see pics. I didn't actually recrimp the socket back in its mounting bracket either, but it sort of snapped in, which was fine.

OK, fine so far? The sheild has two tapped holes in it to receive the bolts. I took about 3/32" to maybe 1/8" off the two cylinders that standoff the sheild. See these in the finished pic. Here I figured I could always find more bolts but these things are kinda important. They are relatively heavy material, probably chrome plated brass. Anyway, for this task I started with the vise method and a file but quickly moved to putting the piece in my hand drill chuck and directing it at a flat bastard file secured on a table. Spinning it and dragging it across the file in the direction of the cut made for pretty short work. Try to end up with a level piece, of course......

OK, cooking with rooster is over for this Thursday. 8)
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rooster
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

OK, I did my 35 watter Express with this tube dampener today. (I did my 25 watter version originally.) Incredible!! Have any of you pursued this? The Belton Co. makes the proper TW layout 9 pin sockets in both top chassis mount and bottom chassis mount it turns out. Order the bottom mount version from cedist.com then, and spare yourself the rebuilding of the top mounted version like I did the first time out. I was in and out this time in ten minutes after prepping the parts, in particular cutting the two cylinders that isolate the dampener from the top of the chassis. (See pics).

Any, again, I have to report that the change in the 35 watt Express is hard to comprehend. How can a vibrating tube effect the sonics of an amp so much!!!! What a great circuit this is when you are not dealing with the vibrational problems of V1. 8)
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by Stanz »

I would imagine it amounts to a form of feedback, probably in the lower frequencies, as the higher ones would carry less mechanical energy. Question becomes, how much is this feedback a part of "The Sound".
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Re: Would the Express V1 benefit from this?

Post by rooster »

S - Exactly. And then we are back to KF and the tubes he had available - and let's not forget his grading process - he knew what he needed in V1. And still I don't think, even as he found the magic tube, it served his design as well as this tube dampener. No way.

To me at this point, having heard the amps both ways, I think if Ken had run into a tube dampener that actually worked, he would have been all over it. Funny, too, from my perspective, this V1 tube must have been a thorn in his side. Even if you had the right tube, how long would it live in the Express without becoming everything he didn't want it to be? Eh? Man, just look at this aversion to combo amps for his Express's as an example and his reported reaction to hearing one of his 'roaded' amps in a club? Was that from Derek, RJ's friend?

Any, so there is no doubt, I am saying that even the BEST TUNGSRAM would benefit from this dampener. And, like I said originally, take the Express into the next room, with a wall between the cab and head, and play the your gtr. (And, BTW, isn't this how a ton of pro engineers would record any amp, not just an Express?) If you can't hear any difference between this and playing with the head on the cab then you clearly don't need to make any changes. No, carry on, of course. I am only sharing my reaction and thoughts on the subject here, afterall. 8)
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