Lindley Tone-Homing In on #8

[Max]

Can you elaborate a bit more on the sonic qualities and which you prefer of the different reverb topology's (Before and after OD) within the different generation ODR's..

Tony

This is easy to answer:

1. All players I know, who don't play (or not only play) slide and had the opportunity to play both, always liked the post-OD reverb better than the pre-OD reverb.

2. Lowell George obviously got a great slide tone with his second generation ODR.

3. Rick Vito got a great slide tone with his 3rd generation ODR.

4. As 2nd and 3rd generation ODR use the same number of tubes and the same kind of chassis, it would perhaps not be that difficult, to built and compare the pre- and post-OD reverb and decide in accord to personal taste?

5. If you want to built a 3rd generation ODR: Take a very close look to the front and back of Santana's ODRs and what kind of "additional" pots you'll find there.

Have fun

Max

[chris_sanford]

I was just hoping that the faceplate differences were indicative of the internal changes.

So it went from silverface to blackface.
There seems to be two different blackface styles with the "By Dumble" being in gold first then later in white.

But apparently he had a lot of transitions that don't really follow a logical progression.

Unfortunately, you can't tell much from the panel screening/graphics. I have seen an example... call it 18x, which has the same silkscreening found on the earlier black-face single-piece chassis such as 100 or 124 (and it's a three piece chassis with wooden ends, like the ones with the 'Tron' graphics)! Also, you will see some with 'By Howard Dumble' instead of just 'By Dumble'... and as you mentioned, some with 'By Dumble' in gold.

chris

[Runaway J]

Runawayj, thank you for your input. Historical info is the key!

You're welcome!
Glad I could contribute at least a little bit.

[Runaway J]

Thanks Max,

"unknown 10" is a 50W.
Brother had it converted to a flightcase-like combo with one of the two 12" Altec 417 8H SII
that were in the 212 cab before he sold it around '86 afaik.
I'd love to know where the amp ended up.

Cheers,
Jürgen

Thanks Jürgen!

I've heard about this amp before (some years ago) but I don't know where it is right now. If you know the series# (PM if you want to keep this private) I could let you know when it reappears.

All the best

Max

Hi Max!
The series# is unknown, unfortunately. I've got to plaque my brother again to dig deeper in his old stuff. There should at least be more pics.
Do you think it made it's way back in the US?
Not that I think there is anything to keep private about this amp, but I'll send a PM anyways. Thanks a lot for your help.

Cheers,
Jürgen

[Runaway J]

Can you elaborate a bit more on the sonic qualities and which you prefer of the different reverb topology's (Before and after OD) within the different generation ODR's..

Tony

This is easy to answer:

1. All players I know, who don't play (or not only play) slide and had the opportunity to play both, always liked the post-OD reverb better than the pre-OD reverb.

2. Lowell George obviously got a great slide tone with his second generation ODR.

3. Rick Vito got a great slide tone with his 3rd generation ODR.

4. As 2nd and 3rd generation ODR use the same number of tubes and the same kind of chassis, it would perhaps not be that difficult, to built and compare the pre- and post-OD reverb and decide in accord to personal taste?

5. If you want to built a 3rd generation ODR: Take a very close look to the front and back of Santana's ODRs and what kind of "additional" pots you'll find there.

Have fun

Max

I don't know how many ODRs exist, but all I have heard of seem to be great amps. So why is there so much talking about ODRs not having 'the' tone and not being worth to clone? Is it because they don't do the RF/LC-thing? Max, can you tell if the 3rd generation ODRs (post-OD-reverb) still have that funky mixing stage?

Cheers,
Jürgen

[Max]

I don't know how many ODRs exist, but all I have heard of seem to be great amps. So why is there so much talking about ODRs not having 'the' tone and not being worth to clone? Is it because they don't do the RF/LC-thing? Max, can you tell if the 3rd generation ODRs (post-OD-reverb) still have that funky mixing stage?

Cheers,
Jürgen

Yes, this is curious indeed: There are countless great "Dumble sounds" on 70s and 80s recordings. In the eighties many players, that did not own a Dumble, like Clapton or Knopfler e. g. used a loaned Dumble owned by Andy Brauer Rentals, Farris, Lukather, Browne and others on some of their recordings (ask Andy Brauer about this). But if people think of "Dumble", mostly the LC/RF sound comes to their mind. And this is uttermost curious, as LC almost never uses the OD channel at all. Very, very strange indeed.

Reverb:

As far as I know all ODR with a post-OD reverb have a more or less similar "structure" as you find on page 730 in the 4th edition of "The Tube Amp Book" (ODS 150W). But HAD did some mods to some 3rd generation ODR to get a better "reverb balance" with and without OD engaged. Look close at all the pots of Santana's ODRs

Dumblelands with reverb and SSS are special in regard of the reverb "signal path" and you also find different reverb circuits in earlier and later (blackface) SSS/Dumblelands.

@talbany

Tony,

the difference in sound and feel is hard to describe and please use this only as a very very rough guideline:

Pre-OD reverb ODR with OD enganged are more similar in sound and feel to a Fender tweed Deluxe on full throttle with a Fender reverb between guitar and amp.

Post-OD ODR are more similar to the sound you get with a Dumble "Big-Tex Reverb" (or other reverb devices) in the loop of a Dumblelator.

Cheers

Max

[dr. who]

I don't know how many ODRs exist, but all I have heard of seem to be great amps. So why is there so much talking about ODRs not having 'the' tone and not being worth to clone? Is it because they don't do the RF/LC-thing? Max, can you tell if the 3rd generation ODRs (post-OD-reverb) still have that funky mixing stage?

Cheers,
Jürgen

Yes, this is curious indeed: There are countless great "Dumble sounds" on 70s and 80s recordings. In the eighties many players, that did not own a Dumble, like Clapton or Knopfler e. g. used a loaned Dumble owned by Andy Brauer Rentals, Farris, Lukather, Browne and others on some of their recordings (ask Andy Brauer about this). But if people think of "Dumble", mostly the LC/RF sound comes to their mind. And this is uttermost curious, as LC almost never uses the OD channel at all. Very, very strange indeed.

Reverb:

As far as I know all ODR with a post-OD reverb have a more or less similar "structure" as you find on page 730 in the 4th edition of "The Tube Amp Book" (ODS 150W). But HAD did some mods to some 3rd generation ODR to get a better "reverb balance" with and without OD engaged. Look close at all the pots of Santana's ODRs

Dumblelands with reverb and SSS are special in regard of the reverb "signal path" and you also find different reverb circuits in earlier and later (blackface) SSS/Dumblelands.

@talbany

Tony,

the difference in sound and feel is hard to describe and please use this only as a very very rough guideline:

Pre-OD reverb ODR with OD enganged are more similar in sound and feel to a Fender tweed Deluxe on full throttle with a Fender reverb between guitar and amp.

Post-OD ODR are more similar to the sound you get with a Dumble "Big-Tex Reverb" (or other reverb devices) in the loop of a Dumblelator.

Cheers

Max

Which one of Santanas ODR? Funk has said that santanas amps have overdriven reverb i.e. Pre-OD reverb.

[boldaslove6789]

Dumble "Big-Tex Reverb" (or other reverb devices) in the loop of a Dumblelator.

Cheers

Max

Is there any Info out there on the "Big Tex Reverb"?
I've heard about it here and there........

Is it essentially a Fender Standalone unit with some HAD tweaks?

[Max]

Which one of Santanas ODR? Funk has said that santanas amps have overdriven reverb i.e. Pre-OD reverb.

Could you please post a link to the post, where Brandon reports, that he found a pre-OD reverb, when he worked on one of Santana's ODRs? This would be a very interesting info, if this would turn out as a proven fact. And of course Brandon is always a first class source. But right now I can't remember such a kind of post.

On both of Santana's ODR you find these two "Overdrive" pots:

"Volume" = Ratio

and

"Reverb" = Reverb Mix for OD,

on the back of one and on the front of the new one (made in 2007).

see the pics on Santana.com and this pic of the back of #057 from Rob's site:

[dr. who]

On Santanas 2007 reverb is before OD as read on the front. I'm not sure of the older one...
From Funks TGP post-
"The ODSR is a wierd amp, the Reverb actually comes BEFORE the OD, so you get overdriven reverb! it's a neat thing, but not for everyone!"
[img:400:171]http://santana.com/images/gear/sm_d_100ocs.jpg[/img]

[Steven_nl]

Maybe this is old for you guys but then again.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INRX0iO8boo

Bump

[Max]

On Santanas 2007 reverb is before OD as read on the front. I'm not sure of the older one...
From Funks TGP post-
"The ODSR is a wierd amp, the Reverb actually comes BEFORE the OD, so you get overdriven reverb! it's a neat thing, but not for everyone!"
[img:400:171]http://santana.com/images/gear/sm_d_100ocs.jpg[/img]

- Where you find the pots on the front does not indicate what "stage" is where in the circuit (in the circuit the "Volume" is placed after the EQ e. g.)

- "The ODSR is a wierd amp, the Reverb actually comes BEFORE the OD,..."

This post I remember, but from what source do you know, that "The ODSR.." is one of Santana's? Could you please post a link to the post, where Brandon writes, that "The ODSR.." is one of Sanatana's two or that he talks about a 3rd generation ODR?

Cheers

Max

[dr. who]

http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread ... 059&page=3
FWIW Carlos does have a Bludo on stage with him now...Maybe Brandon will chime in about which ODSR models he has seen.

[Funkalicousgroove]

Every ODSR I have seen has had the Reverb mix and recovery BEFORE the entrance to the Overdrive

[Max]

Every ODSR I have seen has had the Reverb mix and recovery BEFORE the entrance to the Overdrive

This is very interesting. To avoid misunderstandings in regard of what you mean by "every":

You have worked on both, second (slide switches) and third (small tumbler switches) generation ODR, and found a pre-OD Mix in all the 3rd generation ODR too?

And you have worked on Santana's ODR and have found a pre-OD-Mix in both his ODR too?

I wonder, especially in regard of Santana's amps, as both second generation pre-OD-mix-ODR (100W and 50W) I have used sometimes over a period of some years both have been great amps for slide tones with some OD like Lowell George but not for "high gain sounds".

These two second generation ODRs did have both a lot less OD-gain than the usual second generation ODS. That's why none of the players, who played these two ODR that usually liked higher gain Dumble OD sounds, ever liked these two pre-OD ODR. But slide players and others (Blues e. g.), that did not miss more OD-gain, liked them.

With these two pre-OD-mix-ODR it was (e. g.) impossible to get sustaining Santana like lead tones without the FET and a very very loud volume to add some pwr-amp distortion.

So please understand, why it is so important for me, to make sure, that your "Every ODR", that you have worked on, includes 3rd generation ODR and especially the two that Santana plays.

Thanks in advance and all the best

Max