QUINN TKT183 6L6 ARRIVES

[tele caster]

Can we get a clip of the phone call? Thanks.

[vibratoking]

I try and laugh as much as possible. You should try it sometime!

Comedy is everywhere. Thank you, Tag.

[Max]

Give me a call for the answer. Operators are standing by!

Hi Mr Dumble,

You've started this thread already in your opening post with a statement about how the tone of your newest Quinn - the topic of this thread - compares with other Dumble amps:

Just a big thanks once again to Shad for now making 2 amps that can hang on even terms with any Dumble I have ever heard.

Because of this I thought that you would like to discuss what in detail you think about your newest Quinn in comparison with other Dumble amps. And IMO it is important for such a kind of comparison to avoid misunderstandings concerning what precisely is compared: your new Quinn with - as some examples

- other skyline ODS amps,
- with all other Dumble amps including DL, SSS etc. or only with other ODS amps
- if only ODS: with which of their circuit versions (pre-classic, classic, skyline…)

etc.

But as you now admit to just having been up to "joking around" here - probably in order to find some flame baits and "laugh as much as possible": Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Not sure why I come off as an ass on here

Do you think the reason could perhaps be something like this – just an idea:

What you constantly repeat here in the missionary position is that Alexander Dumble's opinion

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands or millions, of valid guitar tones."

is nonsense and that only you - and some mysterious "most guys" – are able to tell apart what sounds good and what bad. And that what sounds good and bad has nothing to do with personal taste but only with the fact that mother nature and the goddess of mp3 have provided you – and these mysterious "most guys" - with some extraordinary ears.

Then you announce here that you did find out with your ears that "modern" Dumble ODS amps sound "WAY better" than David Lindley’s 1st generation ODS and all the other "old" seventies Dumble ODS amps with a similar circuit.

Now you may perhaps know that some members here deem these "old" amps and their clones to sound great:

Just one exmple:

"The revelation to me was checking out Brandon's 70s amp. The amp has been discussed here before, to an extent. The front panel is similar looking to a traditional Dumble from the 70s, the voicing is along 70s lines, the amp has a mid switch, and the unique feature is that the FET preamp is footswitchable and with a gain/level knob on the back. What can I say? The amp sounds absolutely terrific." Gil Ayan

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12596

Or here you can read, too, what other members think about these "outdated" amps:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12800

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11134

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10575

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 034#123034

So can’t you really imagine that someone who likes how these "old" amps sound will perhaps think that you proclaim that - as you have these great ears and taste - his favour for "outdated" amps can only have the reason that he has bad ears and/or a bad taste?

And doesn’t it perhaps sometimes pass into the organ between your ears that others may perhaps think that someone who tells other people what they should like and what not, and that if they don’t listen and still like the wrong amps, they are most probably dumb and tasteless - is an arrogant ass?

Cheers,

Max

[jaysg]

Here is the comparison clip. First is the 6L6, then a break, and then the EL34 comes in.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 15130&q=hi

Unless the break is a little before 2 minutes, I don't hear any break, let alone a different amp. Is that the right clip?

[Mr Dumble]

Hi Mr Dumble,

Hi again Max!

You've started this thread already in your opening post with a statement about how the tone of your newest Quinn - the topic of this thread - compares with other Dumble amps:

That is correct. It sounds as good as any Dumble I have played or heard.

Because of this I thought that you would like to discuss what in detail you think about your newest Quinn in comparison with other Dumble amps.

And I answered you over and over again. Even offered my phone #, which oddly you refuse to accept. Since you refuse to speak to me in person, it seems to me that maybe you have some kind of agenda?

And IMO it is important for such a kind of comparison to avoid misunderstandings concerning what precisely is compared: your new Quinn with

And once again, I answered you, over and over again.

- as some examples

- other skyline ODS amps,
- with all other Dumble amps including DL, SSS etc. or only with other ODS amps
- if only ODS: with which of their circuit versions (pre-classic, classic, skyline…)

etc.

Once again,
Everything I have played or heard.

But as you now admit to just having been up to "joking around" here -

Not joking at all about the tone. Its truly amazing.

probably in order to find some flame baits and "laugh as much as possible": Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Of which part I cleared up.

Not sure why I come off as an ass on here

Do you think the reason could perhaps be something like this – just an idea:

Lets take a look, shall we?

What you constantly repeat here in the missionary position is that Alexander Dumble's opinion

"There are hundreds, perhaps thousands or millions, of valid guitar tones."

is nonsense

I have never said that, anywhere, on any forum, because I agree with it.
There are truly millions of great tones.

Now what I HAVE said is that some amps simply sound better than others, and some MUCH better than others, which is totally true.

and that only you

Never said that. Show me anywhere where I have said that.

- and some mysterious "most guys" – are able to tell apart what sounds good and what bad.

Mysterious? I can give you a list of players that I play with, but lets just LISTEN to what Robben Ford has to say for a second.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1


VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!!

And that what sounds good and bad has nothing to do with personal taste

I have never said anything like that either. A Metal guy FOR THE MOST PART is not going to like clean fender amps. How many Metal albums and or artist use BF Fenders? A jazz or country player FOR THE MOST PART is not going to like Marshall amps. How many true jazz and country players use Marshalls? I have said that when certain parameters are set, MOST guys agree on what amp or amps sound better than others, and in many cases, some amps sound MUCH better than others.

but only with the fact that mother nature and the goddess of mp3 have provided you – and these mysterious "most guys" - with some extraordinary ears.

Thank goodness for mp3s!!! I try and provide as many DIRECT A/B clips as I possibly can, exactly so guys can hear for themselves.

Then you announce here that you did find out with your ears that "modern" Dumble ODS amps sound "WAY better" than David Lindley’s 1st generation ODS

If Lindleys amp sounds like the older ones I have played, ABSOLUTELY. I have never said that means you cant get some great tones with those, or even a pignose amp.

and all the other "old" seventies Dumble ODS amps with a similar circuit.

No, the ones I have played or heard.

Now you may perhaps know that some members here deem these "old" amps and their clones to sound great:

Great! And IMO, when they play #183 or a fantastic sounding newer one, they will be blown away even more! Again, look at the prices of the amps in question. IMO, the later ones fetch the bigger money because of the TONE.

Just one exmple:

"The revelation to me was checking out Brandon's 70s amp. The amp has been discussed here before, to an extent. The front panel is similar looking to a traditional Dumble from the 70s, the voicing is along 70s lines, the amp has a mid switch, and the unique feature is that the FET preamp is footswitchable and with a gain/level knob on the back. What can I say? The amp sounds absolutely terrific." Gil Ayan

No comment, because I am not sure if I heard that particular Bludo or not. I know there are many great sounding clones, and speaking of the FET, many twoRocks have that feature as well. Personally, I have never cared for the FET tones in person on any Dumble or clone. Much of it is the feel.

Or here you can read, too, what other members think about these "outdated" amps:

Any direct A/B clips with newer Dumbles?

So can’t you really imagine that someone who likes how these "old" amps sound will perhaps think that you proclaim that - as you have these great ears and taste - his favour for "outdated" amps can only have the reason that he has bad ears and/or a bad taste?

No, I really cant. If I like something, I really do not care if someone else likes it or not. I think maybe I hurt your fellings by what you THINK I said? And again, I have never said the older amps cant get some nice tones.

And doesn’t it perhaps sometimes pass into the organ between your ears that others may perhaps think that someone who tells other people what they should like

Another big mistake on your part. I never tell ANYONE what they SHOULD like. You are mistaking what you THINK I say, with what I actually say. Now if you would have called me and spoken to me in person, I think you would actually agree with much of what I REALLY say. You are still welcome to call, and if you still disagree (or agree) with me, you are welcome to post it.

and that if they don’t listen and still like the wrong amps, they are most probably dumb and tasteless

Sorry Max. I cant comprehend that. Even if I said that, (which I never have) if someone comes to the conclusion that they are dumb and tasteless because I, or anyone else does not like the same amp as them, then they, ummmmm, well, uhhh, hmmmmmmmmm.


My offer to talk still stands!

[makrisp]

At least we can all agree....

DUMBLE IS KING!

[Max]

Even offered my phone #, which oddly you refuse to accept. Since you refuse to speak to me in person, it seems to me that maybe you have some kind of agenda?

Hi Mr Dumble,

please understand that I didn't become a member of the Amp Garage forum to discuss topics on the phone. IMO this isn't the sense of an internet discussion forum.

You are mistaking what you THINK I say, with what I actually say.

Of course misunderstandings are always possible. So let’s check if I really did misunderstand how you think about people with a different opinion in regard to the tone of your TKT 183 6L6 in comparison with these "old" Dumble ODS amps from between #001 up to around #070:

Personally I don’t like the tone of #183 and its clones "WAY better" than the guitar tone of these "old" Dumble ODS amps.

Now why do you think this is the case?

- Because you and me just have a rather different subjective personal taste in regard to the kind of electric guitar tones we like best

or

- Because my ears and/or my personal taste are too bad to perceive and appreciate the objective "WAY better" tone of #183 and its clones?

Cheers,

Max

[CHIP]

To avoid future confusion may I state that #183 clone with 6L6's is no longer a #183 clone, since the original used EL34"s. Maybe this mutant should be refered to as #183 1/2.

[Structo]

Or #183 with a twist.

[Mr Dumble]

Even offered my phone #, which oddly you refuse to accept. Since you refuse to speak to me in person, it seems to me that maybe you have some kind of agenda?

Hi Mr Dumble,

please understand that I didn't become a member of the Amp Garage forum to discuss topics on the phone. IMO this isn't the sense of an internet discussion forum.

You are mistaking what you THINK I say, with what I actually say.

Of course misunderstandings are always possible. So let’s check if I really did misunderstand how you think about people with a different opinion in regard to the tone of your TKT 183 6L6 in comparison with these "old" Dumble ODS amps from between #001 up to around #070:

Personally I don’t like the tone of #183 and its clones "WAY better" than the guitar tone of these "old" Dumble ODS amps.

Now why do you think this is the case?

- Because you and me just have a rather different subjective personal taste in regard to the kind of electric guitar tones we like best

or

- Because my ears and/or my personal taste are too bad to perceive and appreciate the objective "WAY better" tone of #183 and its clones?

Cheers,

Max

Simple! You have not played them side by side. IMO, if you did, and you could only have one of the two amps, there would be no question you would take #183. The other, while capable of some nice tones, falls far short of what 183 can do. It seems 183 can do anything the older amps can do, and SO much more. I really think every single person, who played them both and A/Bd them, would take the newer amp. Again, there is a reason the newer amp goes for double the money, and its not any more rare than the older models. Its the tone.

[Mr Dumble]

To avoid future confusion may I state that #183 clone with 6L6's is no longer a #183 clone, since the original used EL34"s. Maybe this mutant should be refered to as #183 1/2.

Good point, and my mistake Chip. Its not a clone, and it sounds quite different than 183.

[Max]

Simple! You have not played them side by side. IMO, if you did, and you could only have one of the two amps, there would be no question you would take #183. The other, while capable of some nice tones, falls far short of what 183 can do. It seems 183 can do anything the older amps can do, and SO much more. I really think every single person, who played them both and A/Bd them, would take the newer amp. Again, there is a reason the newer amp goes for double the money, and its not any more rare than the older models. Its the tone.

Hi Mr Dumble,

so you think that I am not able to judge how much I would like the tone of #183 in comparison to the tone of the "old" Dumble amps based on your own and dogears clips of #183, but you are able to judge how the tone of #183 compares with the tone of Charly Bonat's (Elgam Collective) "old" Dumble amp from listening to the Elgam Collective clips I've posted?

Cheers,

Max

[Mr Dumble]

Simple! You have not played them side by side. IMO, if you did, and you could only have one of the two amps, there would be no question you would take #183. The other, while capable of some nice tones, falls far short of what 183 can do. It seems 183 can do anything the older amps can do, and SO much more. I really think every single person, who played them both and A/Bd them, would take the newer amp. Again, there is a reason the newer amp goes for double the money, and its not any more rare than the older models. Its the tone.

Hi Mr Dumble,

so you think that I am not able to judge how much I would like the tone of #183 in comparison to the tone of the "old" Dumble amps based on your own and dogears clips of #183, but you are able to judge how the tone of #183 compares with the tone of Charly Bonat's (Elgam Collective) "old" Dumble amp from listening to the Elgam Collective clips I've posted?

Cheers,

Max

I am going by the older Dumbles I have played Max, and how they all seem to be very similar sounding. There could very well be certain older Dumbles that sound fantastic, and there could be some nerwer ones that blow 183 away. I have yet to hear either however. Now that I have this new mix of 183 preamp and 6L6 power amp, I can see how there could be amps that sound better than 183, because I believe this one does. VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!
Now to shift gears a bit here, going back to your "nothing is better" thinking. I went out to buy a fender Custom shop Strat several years ago. naturally, i played as many as I could possibly find. It so happens that Victors house of music in ridgewood NJ had many of them in stock at that time. I believe around 8-9 of them. I went through each guiatr, and all but one sounded very similar. each had its merits, and I can easily see how one player would choose the sunburst over one of the naturals they had. Of all those guitars, it was totally subjective as to which sounded better. Then there was one more natural one. This one had it all. It totally stomped on every other one there. I played it, the manager (Phil who now works at Alto music in Middletown NY), two of my buddies played it. we were all talking about "subjectiveness" and asking everyone around to play the guitars, and see which they thought sounded "the best". UGGHH!!!! THRES THAT EVEIL WORD!!!!! That guitar vibrated all over, it EASILY out performed every other strat there. Sheer "mojo" if you will. (Actually, just the luck of having the right woods come together with the right pups etc). In any case, I do not believe any player with a decent ear, would have chosen any other Strat out of the ones there over that one. It was simply "BETTER" sounding period. Another example. I bought a HR Deville. Of course I did the same thing, and tried a whole bunch of them. They were all very simililar, but one did stand out a bit from the others, so I bought it. Several months later if i recall, a buddy of mine calls and says he wants to come over and play, and he just bought a brand new HR deville. I said great, come on over! So he comes over, and I ask him where he got the amp. he just went into a local store and bought the only one they had new in a box. That amp KILLS mine. In every way shape or form. Its a no brainer. These things happen all the time with guitars and amps. Some sound very similar, and some blow the snot out of others. Some things just sound better to most human ears, but at the same time, there are many similar things that can make a choice be purely a personal c hoice issue. Do I say a Strat is a better guitar than a tele or a Les Paul? Of course not. Is a Dumble a better sounding amp than a Mesa Dual rectifier? Nope. Totally subjective. But do some Dual rectifiers sound much better than others? I would argue that yes, there are some. Do some Dumbles sound much better than others? Yes. And yes, there are some Dumbles that are so similar, it would come down to personal taste.

I am now stepping away from this argument, and will get back to posting some comparison clips. Maybe a new thread is needed for that at this point. Hmmmm. You are still welcome to call me, and then post your take on our conversation. Send me your number if you like, and I will even pay the bill!

[Mr Dumble]

Or #183 with a twist.

I like that! Damn! I could have had Shad make that the serial #.

[talbany]

Tag/Max

With total respect for both you guy's I'll say this..
Previous to my building a 2nd generation ODS the focus on this forum was primarly around the later Skyliner or updated low plate classic amps ala #124.. Thanks to the help of Gil and Billy who got the ball rolling on finally posting a complete sketch of an actual Dumble that led to a complete layout..
The info on the earlier 2nd generations were incomplete not well documented and the general consensus about the tone info was mixed with most opinions being very similar to Tag's..
This kept me away from this build for the longest time until Max started posting his fact sheet as well as some nice clips and the Lindly tone chase for me started.. IMO I am glad I did the build it is one of my favorites..
Is it like the clips of 183 or any of my other later generation amps of coarse not apples and oranges (like you point out) but I love amp just the same as have many others here... You should see my PM box after the 2nd generation layout was published (with the help of Max) of people who did the build and LOVE the amp..It was at least 1-2 a day for a month wanting advice and thanking me for the layout..

Tag might I suggest in keeping an open mind that there may be some builders out there that greatly respect your opinion that have not played as many Dumble amps you might have and that by using words like bad sounding not as good as, or harsh might steer people or some builders clear of these amps that otherwise could turn out like me and many others here and in the end love them..
Perhaps you could be a bit more creative in your description so not to scare them off the build but still inject your opinion.. Just a suggestion..Of coarse your opinion is always your opinion..

With due respect to all

Tony