FUCHSAUDIO wrote:I heard he has a Verbrator on his pedal board...nice to know
Michael landau is one of my all time players. also he is one of the few folks that is pretty consistent with his board (and plays what he lists on his website).
The following are pictures from a show he did 1/29/11 -- also a snap shot from his website -- I'd say they match up pretty good.
CHIP wrote:Everyone knows when you purchase a recording you can copy it as many times as you like, as long as you don't intend to sell.
Chip, so before copying it for your personal use you at first purchased an original custom made Dumble amp from Alexander Dumble? Or did I misunderstand something in your post?
Cheers,
Max
You got me there, So I admit, anyone who builds a Dumble amp is unethical, unless they purchase an original Dumble first and then clone it, without intentions of selling. Good? Who cares, Right?
CHIP wrote:Everyone knows when you purchase a recording you can copy it as many times as you like, as long as you don't intend to sell.
Chip, so before copying it for your personal use you at first purchased an original custom made Dumble amp from Alexander Dumble? Or did I misunderstand something in your post?
Cheers,
Max
You got me there, So I admit, anyone who builds a Dumble amp is unethical, unless they purchase an original Dumble first and then clone it, without intentions of selling. Good? Who cares, Right?
Chip, you ask "Right?". My answer: I'm not sure 100%.
I've always been a bit reluctant to study ethics more deeply as this seems to be such a complicated topic. Just one example:
Would it be still unethical if there are intentions of selling but not a single piece is sold because every time the (not yet - but soon) commercial builder thinks it's ready now for sale he wakes up the next morning with some new idea how it could be made to sound even much better with some tweaks and so in reality it is never used by someone else than the (not yet - but soon) commercial builder?
As you see, ethics seem (at least to me) to be far more complicated than physics or psychoacoustics. But of course this is a matter of personal taste. If members here should be interested AFAIK there good self-help books on ethics, too: http://www.dummies.com/store/product/Et ... 91714.html
1/ Dumble is a nice guy. Like lots of nice guys who see themselves as artists, he is very possessive of his circuit ideas. The problem is, he chose the wrong idiom to be possessive in. Tube amps. Tube amps have been around a LONG time. In the tube amp business, it is widely accepted that your product's circuit layout is only safe until the first amp is sold. Once that first amp leaves the shop, the cat is out of the bag. Marshall wouldn't exist anymore without the 1959 Fender Bassman. Due to the nature of this business, and the fact that tube amp 'designers' are really more like cooks that put a little more of this or that seasoning in a well established recipe, I don't understand how anyone should have any kind of ethical hang-up. Although, I do see how civilians (non-amp-builders) would find this confusing.
The tube amp business is not a place for people that fancy themselves as artists, and unfortunately for Dumble's nerves, he sees himself that way.
2/ (On topic!) Having heard Landau's Overdrive Special and his Slidewinder, I personally find the latter far more intriguing. The ODS has the unfortunate effect of 'genericizing' Mike's normally unique tone. The Slidewinder, while known to be a 5f6 circuit, is tweaked in such a cool way and has some serious size in how it occupies the bandwidth of a mix. Want.
Due to the nature of this business, and the fact that tube amp 'designers' are really more like cooks that put a little more of this or that seasoning in a well established recipe, I don't understand how anyone should have any kind of ethical hang-up. Although, I do see how civilians (non-amp-builders) would find this confusing
I've used this analogy before and it makes sense. When you look at products from so many makers as I do (I've done a ton of repair work), you see how Mesa, Bruno, Sundown, Two Rock (whoever) use various "ingredients" to make their own "recipes". Very few guys have used many circuits that are totally unlike anything else, because players expect a given sound and response from their amps, the the circuits that produce that are time honored circuits.
i don't think any of the great players wants to be pegged as a 'd-amp sound' . i don't. even larry says the amp brings the best 'out of HIM' .
all the good players sound like themselves, no matter what.
d-amps have a lot of color to their sound, which some can make to their advantage, as an amp w/ that much color can easily wreck a player's sound, and playing and inspiration.
quite analogous to microphone sound/ color,
Conversely, there are also many players who's limitations are delivered front and center by these amps, and they come away upset and downright angry. It's like being a bad driver, buying a Ferrari, and then complaining it's a "bad car" when you smack it up.....
I've heard so many people sound so different through them, that while they don't have "a sound" of their own, they deliver the players sound brutally honest.
glasman wrote:Given the Marshall stereo power amp in the rack above the dumble and the other toys in the rack, the Dumble is only a part of the sound....
IMO nix just posted the explanation for the Palmer PGA and the Marshall stero power amp and the small two cabinets on the right side of the pic:
"I sometimes use a Lexicon MPX-1 in the effects loop of the amp with a Suhr Mini Mix for reverb and delay, or I take a speaker line out of the amp into a Palmer PGA-4 Speaker Simulator into the Lexicon MPX-1 into a Marshall Valvestate 8008 power amp into 2 Custom Audio 2x10 cabs with Celestion Vintage 10 speakers. These 2 cabinets have the wet sound only."
Example for Ethics and the perception..
Considering the vast number of Fender designs Bassman/Blackface amps and Marshall clones (do a JTM 45 search) and Plexi's etc clones out weighs the number of Dumble clones being built easily IMO( although the number is rising) yet nobody seems to mind or at least has any sort of ethics issue within that community of builders...WHY :?
Yet this topic always seems to pop here now and again (although not quite as often as it used too)..
My perception is that there are so many people out their building these old Fender?Marshall/Vox clones and the schematics and layouts are widely publicized and readily available yet you rarely hear of any kind of conscience/ethics jury/debate while cloning one of the most popular guitar amps ever made IMO (Bassman/JTM)..
NEWS FLASH!!
Thanks to the help of this place Max, Shad,Scott,Brandon, and all those who pitched in on the layouts much of the secrecy of the ODS has been wiped away... I predict in several years building a Dumble clone will be placed in the same ethics rank as a Fender Bassman..It's going to happen sooner or later...Might as well get used to it now.
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
I've used this analogy before and it makes sense. When you look at products from so many makers as I do (I've done a ton of repair work), you see how Mesa, Bruno, Sundown, Two Rock (whoever) use various "ingredients" to make their own "recipes". Very few guys have used many circuits that are totally unlike anything else, because players expect a given sound and response from their amps, the the circuits that produce that are time honored circuits.
I Agree!
Conversely, there are also many players who's limitations are delivered front and center by these amps, and they come away upset and downright angry. It's like being a bad driver, buying a Ferrari, and then complaining it's a "bad car" when you smack it up.....
I've heard so many people sound so different through them, that while they don't have "a sound" of their own, they deliver the players sound brutally honest.
_________________
Totally Agree!
Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
3/
-ALL people like to own things that only rich people can own.
-When told they can't buy something, a rich person's response is invariably,"Everything has its' price."
-Rich people DO NOT like being told they can't have something. This concept is foreign to them.
-Demand/price for an object has little to do with it's inherent value, particularly once more than one collector decides they want that object.
-Being able to play the guitar well is not something rich people can simply purchase.
-Having a Dumble built for you required a number of things, including being able to play in a manner that entertains the builder.
-Dumbles were the most expensive guitar amps available in the '70s and '80s, so not only are they rare, they are Vintage.
-A handful of famous players used them, and people like their heroes.
-Rich people know that musicians will eventually need money.
All of these things lead us to how much Dumbles cost on the open market. I say 'open market' because buying a new one is impossible unless you are already famous player (and even then, there are no guarantees...ask Mayer), so that market is effectively 'closed' to the 'rich-but-not-talented' crowd.
Used Dumbles cost a lot of money because they are collector's items. It has NOTHING to do with the sound: they don't all sound the same and not all sound very different from --nor better than-- commonly-available Fenders/Marshalls/Boogies, but Dumbles are ALL very valuable.
They are collectible because they are exclusive and rare. Some musicians want them partly for the sound of a few of the amps, but in large part because most musicians think that the gear that they can't have is going to help them take the 'next step', either with their playing or career. Owning a Dumble has certainly raised the profile of several mediocre players that wouldn't have otherwise been a blip on the radar. Never discount the lure of 'bragging rights'. We see that here regularly.
It all started when a musician for whom Dumble had built an amp, finally succumbed to an exorbitant offer made by a person who would never have gotten a Dumble otherwise.
Using a Dumble on a gig has become the musical equivalent to driving a Ferrari 250 GTO to the grocery store.
nix wrote:
2/ (On topic!) Having heard Landau's Overdrive Special and his Slidewinder, I personally find the latter far more intriguing. The ODS has the unfortunate effect of 'genericizing' Mike's normally unique tone. The Slidewinder, while known to be a 5f6 circuit, is tweaked in such a cool way and has some serious size in how it occupies the bandwidth of a mix. Want.
I respect you opinion... but I totally disagree!
I have seen Landau with his new ODS three times, and I think the voicing Alexander came up with is perfect for Landau!
It absolutely captures all of Landau's nuances and subtle techniques...
Alexander nailed it, IMHO... And in talking to Landau about his ODS, he is very happy!
les_guitar wrote: And in talking to Landau about his ODS, he is very happy!
Hi les_guitar,
this may well be the case, but as nix just explained he shouldn't be. Who the f.... is Michael Landau that he thinks he knows best what kind of amp is the best tool for him and his music and even without first asking us here? In all these tweaking hours Michael Landau talks about Alexander Dumble will probably have bewitched him to like such a genericizing piece of black magic. Now he is forced by the black art of this Amp Wizard to sound like a Michael Landau clone until the end of his days. Free Michael Landau!
les_guitar wrote: And in talking to Landau about his ODS, he is very happy!
Hi les_guitar,
this may well be the case, but as nix just explained he shouldn't be. Who the f.... is Michael Landau that he thinks he knows best what kind of amp is the best tool for him and his music and even without first asking us here? In all these tweaking hours Michael Landau talks about Alexander Dumble will probably have bewitched him to like such a genericizing piece of black magic. Now he is forced by the black art of this Amp Wizard to sound like a Michael Landau clone until the end of his days. Free Michael Landau!
Cheers,
Max
Yep.
That's exactly what I was saying and precisely how I look at the world. You've exposed me for the shallow ass that I am.(this is to indicate sarcasm since this isn't the first time you've read your own agenda into something I've said/didn't say)
I was actually talking about what interested me for my own usage and/or taste.
I'm sure Landau can take care of himself as far as amps go.
I'm not sure what I've ever done to entice you towards antagonism and I do find it very confusing.
