Fuchs Jack Frost ?

[FUCHSAUDIO]

I really didn't understand why he didn't understand. Not trying to start anything

Again I think Andy understands where I'm comming from, it has NOTHING to do with Fuchs making this kind of amp, it was about the choice of artist to be the center piece of it.

Tweaking for NAMM? can you really hear anything there? Do you have an enclosed room?
Andy when you do "tweaks" how often do you do them. Do you have tweaks like Rev A rev B etc and let the customers know or do you just do it and not say anything. I can definately understand #2 since that is what most amp guys do. But then there are amps like Soldano SLO for better or worse I think he has NEVER made a change since day 1. Bogner has definately made a boatload of changes and I think he only tells people 1/10th of his tweaks. I guess every Dumble is a little different

What I meant is we're preparing products for the show. In the case of the Frost being finalized, it's a new design, not yet in production formally. We're still finalizing the bill of materials and doing final tweaks.

If you think any amplifier (from Soldano, Peavey, or anyone else) doesn't undergo adjustments through it's production cycle, your deeply mistaken. I worked in the service end of this field for many years before manufacturing anything. There are very few companies (if any) that don't make changes for stability, tone, or to react to suppliers discontinuing a part, during production cycles. Most every schematic had notes pointing out (*) added after s/n XYZ, or (*) not on every model... etc. Heck, my Volvo got a software upgrade after 5 years.....

[strat57]

Heck, my Volvo got a software upgrade after 5 years.....

You drive a Volvo???? I'm not sure I'd admit to that...... Please tell us it's "really" your wife's grocery getter.... (well, at least you can't plug a guitar into it!)

Nice amps though!

[drz400]

[ part, during production cycles. Most every schematic had notes pointing out (*) added after s/n XYZ, or (*) not on every model... etc. Heck, my Volvo got a software upgrade after 5 years.....

Dont get me wrong, I think tweaks in the name of stability and tone are a great thing.

I was just curious since when you are a consumer you always wonder if you have all the latest and greatest tweaks after the amp is a year old.

Some makers make major tweaks without saying anything and some do tell people they have made some changes and then people want the tweaks regardless of whether they need them or not. I think it interesting the SLO has not gone thru any changes, if it were me I would have fixed the effects loop

I was just wonder if when you make a tone tweak is it something you offer for free ? Do you change the model to revB etc?

['67_Plexi]

[quote="drz400
I was just wonder if when you make a tone tweak is it something you offer for free ? Do you change the model to revB etc?[/quote]

I think you know the answer to that one already !!! That is just not commercially viable. Imagine if Marshall recalled all their JMP amps from '68 every time they made a tweak or component change.

The only time you have to upgrade free of charge is when the change is safety related and to not change seriously detriments the safety of the product.

There are however times where the Manufacturer should make a change available either free or discounted that isn't necessarily safety related in order to protect it's own integrity.
A good example is from one of the largest Manufactures of amps who produced a model that could take EL34's or 6L6's. The trouble was if you chnged to EL34's and used the most common JJ type, the screen resistors wouldn't hold up. Basically this was because they were spec'ed for 6L6's, not EL34's, which obviously have way more screen current.

[FUCHSAUDIO]

Heck, my Volvo got a software upgrade after 5 years.....

You drive a Volvo???? I'm not sure I'd admit to that...... Please tell us it's "really" your wife's grocery getter.... (well, at least you can't plug a guitar into it!)

Nice amps though!

Summer car: '85 Dodge 600 turbo convertible, everyday (and winter) car 1999 V-70 wagon: practical, good on gas, carts equipment easily, and is actually a good driving car.....sorry to disappoint you. .

As far as product tweaks, I don't think you can say with any certainty that a Soldano SLO (or any other product) "has never been changed". Perhaps it's one part here or there, but it's not uncommon for a manufacturer to find a better part, a cheaper part, or change a supplier during the course of making a model.

In our case, we've done "soft" upgrades along the way. IMHO major changes mean new models. We made one change (SLX) after about 2-years of production and made it available as an upgrade, and at a reasonable cost.

When an amp does come in for a repair, we will change a part relating to safety, longevity etc. when and if applicable. We would never change a part affecting an amps tone without asking a customer first anyway.

We have been very lucky as a small manufacturer. We buy premium parts, and have a pretty low return/failure rate. Most of the time it's either shipping and or tube related. That's how it should be.....

[Smitty]

[quote="drz400"]Seems out of character for Fuchs ...IMO in cheapens the Fuchs name. ...Strange how the sound clips are not working..There are some great shred metal players out there, just seemed like a very odd choice.[quote]

DRZ400. Please take this in the positive vein it is written. It's not a slam.

Being a commerially successful boutique amp maker especially in the marketing discipline requires an awful lot of trial and error. What ever sticks to the wall you keep. I think Andy runs a stand up business and is very successful. You could watch and learn from him. I do.

After the comments above the suggestion of secret improvements, mandatory disclosure and free upgrades (paraphrasing) is a little over the top IMHO. It's almost as if you are taunting Andy publicly for his lack of business acumen. You should know that these kinds of off-the-cuff comments almost require a response from the manufacturers like him.

Put yourself in Andy's shoes for just one day and then finish it up by having to respond to posts like yours. I'm guessing that you wouldn't appreciate it. You might want to think about giving him a break next time. He's a busy guy, but always takes the time...

[drz400]

Seems out of character for Fuchs ...IMO in cheapens the Fuchs name. ...Strange how the sound clips are not working..There are some great shred metal players out there, just seemed like a very odd choice.

DRZ400. Please take this in the positive vein it is written. It's not a slam.

Being a commerially successful boutique amp maker especially in the marketing discipline requires an awful lot of trial and error. What ever sticks to the wall you keep. I think Andy runs a stand up business and is very successful. You could watch and learn from him. I do.

After the comments above the suggestion of secret improvements, mandatory disclosure and free upgrades (paraphrasing) is a little over the top IMHO. It's almost as if you are taunting Andy publicly for his lack of business acumen. You should know that these kinds of off-the-cuff comments almost require a response from the manufacturers like him.

Put yourself in Andy's shoes for just one day and then finish it up by having to respond to posts like yours. I'm guessing that you wouldn't appreciate it. You might want to think about giving him a break next time. He's a busy guy, but always takes the time...

You are out of wack
I am not giving Andy a hard time . That question came about cause...
My friend buys amps, then the designers make an upgrade 1 month later and wants to charge my friend for the update to make his amp sound better (not Fuchs BTW) I was curious how Andy (being another boutique style builder) handles this type of situation since I understand both sides of the fence. I'm not giving Andy a hard time at all you are totally misreading me. Hopefully Andy understands that was not a slant against him. Just an honest question on how does he approach that type of situation.
The business about Jack? I have known who Jack is and what he does for many years, I know all the bands he has been in and personally I think Andy could do much better, Jack is well known for taking any gear he can get. Andy and I have talked in PM and we understand each other, Andy knows where I am comming from, there are no problems here.

[Bob-I]

My friends buy amps, then the designer makes an upgrade 1 month later and wants to charge my friend for the update to make his amp sound better

I'm not understanding the problem with this.

Products are constantly under development and improvements. If you buy a car and a month later the new model is released with better mileage, you're not getting that improvement.

[Smitty]

You are out of wack. I am not giving Andy a hard time . That question came about cause... My friend buys amps, then the designers make an upgrade 1 month later and wants to charge my friend for the update to make his amp sound better (not Fuchs BTW) I was curious how Andy (being another boutique style builder) handles this type of situation since I understand both sides of the fence. I'm not giving Andy a hard time at all you are totally misreading me. Hopefully Andy understands that was not a slant against him. Just an honest question on how does he approach that type of situation.

Please forgive me for 'totally misreading you'. I do not wish to be 'out of wack'. I think I may still be a little 'out of wack', so perhaps you can help me. Your comments seem to infer a point of view. Are you saying that boutique amplifier builders should do free updates? Are any doing them today?

The business about Jack? I have known who Jack is and what he does for many years, I know all the bands he has been in and personally I think Andy could do much better, Jack is well known for taking any gear he can get. Andy and I have talked in PM and we understand each other, Andy knows where I am comming from, there are no problems here. :wink:

I was not implying that Andy had a problem with you. He's too nice of a guy for that. The title of this post includes the acronym 'WTF' which implies that you have a problem with Andy's choice. Perhaps you can help me here too. Are you saying that companies should not endorse artists whose playing does not meet some standard of ability even though they enjoy notoriety within the target market for the endorsed or signature product? If so, what should this standard be? How should we measure it?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Smitty

[FUCHSAUDIO]

My friends buy amps, then the designer makes an upgrade 1 month later and wants to charge my friend for the update to make his amp sound better

I'm not understanding the "real" problem with this thread. We started out discussing an endorser choice, and now we're bemoaning "your friend" and his update......?

If a guy bought an amp, one would assume he liked what it sounded like, so that why he bought it ! If he heard another similar amp that sounded different or "better", maybe he wants to upgrade things, maybe not.

Hi-end boutique products are (or should be) constantly under refinement, development and improvements. If you buy a car and a month later the new model is released with better mileage, you're not getting that improvement. We've changed tube and component part types in the interests of sonics and/or reliability. Some things you don't learn about until a part fails regularly in the field or a better part comes along. In our case, the switch to RoHs compliant parts have made us change a number of parts by no choice of our own.

Many boutique builders constantly strive to "raise the bar" in what they do. It's what separates Peavey or Ampeg from a Fuchs, Glaswerks, Suhr, Two-Rock or others. You could buy mass-produced mediocrity, or buy a product from a small company that cares about what they build, and try keeping their products as good as they can be. Try to get Randy Smith at Mesa on the phone lately ? Try to get tech support for Ampeg/Crate, since they closed up the St Louis facility and started making their amps in Viet Nam ?

You sound as if you have a specific friend/customer who has issues with other companies. It's gone beyond Jack, product endorsements, and/or the Frost amps.

If a dealer does not rotate stock, and/or a customer buys an older used amp, where does a manufacturers responsibility end with a product or a customer ? Most manufacturers will provide a reasonable rate to upgrade an old unit to a newer specs (I know we do). More often than not, we would side with a customer, and deal with the conduct of a dealer later. The irony in all this: Less than 5% of customers (we're not alone btw) send in their warranty cards anyway. We provide a 5 year warranty, and yet people don't think they need to register an amp until 3 years into the "warranty" it requires service, at which point they realize they don't have one because of a single postage stamp !

I PM'ed you regarding the initial Frost issue, and you are welcome to PM me about this if you wish. But something seems weird here.....inquiring minds need to know....Sounds like a subject for another separate thread ?

[drz400]

I thought we were clear Andy on the Frost thing in our PM's. Then I find myself trying to defend myself over and over kind of like people really are not reading the whole thread or my posts to see we have gotten past that. It was my mistake for starting the thread, did not belong on a amp builders community at all. My fault , SORRY!

The issue of updates just made me think about my friend and you mentioned tweaking so I was curious to find out how you deal with this type of thing since you were here and available. I do know of some amp builders who offer free updates within 1 year provided the customer takes care of shipping and they are updates on new models (not customer tweaks). I was just wondering what your take was on it but I have touched a few nerves. Yes it should have been in another thread and not directed at you. Nothing was implied, no mystery.

I only came here to learn more about Dumbles and have, and think I have contributed some of my grounding techniques my father taught me that really work. I have also shared schematics with people via PM
I try and help where ever I can. Dad was a Senior engineer at Bell Labs and way into tube HiFi Audio design. I've had fun here and slip once by having an opinion I should not have expressed on this forum and apparently I'm not the only person with this opinion, but never the less it didnt belong here, Sorry.
The internet is not a place to chat, people misread you
Accept my appologies, I'm taking a break from typing, I'm going to do some dirt bike riding in the CA desert, Chow ...maybe see you guys in a year, for a while I'll be keeping my mouth shut.

burn this thread, see ya!

['67_Plexi]

It was my mistake for starting the thread, did not belong on a amp builders community at all. My fault , SORRY!

Maybe, maybe not. There's a couple of positives though. You got a direct reply from Andy and others as to the thinking and why certain decisions are made without having to filter through a bunch of hearsayers talking about a subject they have no experience with.

You came to a forum where a number of commercial ampbuilders hangout for fun, not for business, many share information and basically we are more at ease to say things we wouldn't on the Gearpage or wherever.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your decision, except the wording of the thread title.

Regards, Alan.

['67_Plexi]

It was my mistake for starting the thread, did not belong on a amp builders community at all. My fault , SORRY!

Maybe, maybe not. There's a couple of positives though. You got a direct reply from Andy and others as to the thinking and why certain decisions are made without having to filter through a bunch of hearsayers talking about a subject they have no experience with.

You came to a forum where a number of commercial ampbuilders hangout for fun, not for business, many share information and basically we are more at ease to say things we wouldn't on the Gearpage or wherever.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your decision, except the wording of the thread title.

Regards, Alan.

['67_Plexi]

Got to play this amp at NAMM. Sounds great. A ballsy rock amp with modern voicing.
Also got to meet Jack Frost, really nice guy and a great player.