Dumble vs Bruno

[Funkalicousgroove]

Bob-I

I will have pre-fab solder-masked PCB's available to fit my future chassis kits shortly, they will be for the relay supply, "cap farm", FET and the two relay boards-of course the preamp will still be on an eyelet board.

When they are done Iwill make them available with or without a chassis.

[talbany]

If that is the case I wonder why Dumble or Ken fisher for that matter never built one amp with a PCB board. In my opinion they all seem to have an enemic quality about them. I have done several conversions on some of the new JTM 45 reissues as well as JCM 800 from PCB to Turrett boards and discover a noticeable differance in frequency responce as well as a harmonic eveness especially in the upper frequencies, also the overall feel of the amp changes as well. The best amps I have ever Played and heard live and recorded have been with Turrett or PTP style amps. As far as how many people can actually tell the differance, given the fact that the electric guitar is such an extremely difficult instrument to play not to mention to master is another story, from a manufacturing stand point it makes perfect sence but from a tonal or sonic stand point I don't care what anybody says PCB boards do not sound as good as point to point. Don't we all know this by now!!

[Tdale]

I agree that the Bruno price is way too high. But it's just like fashion. Some women pay 2000 dollars for a Prada purse, even if it probably costs 10 dollars to make. And as long as people are willing to pay a price, there is probably no reason to lower it....

Tommy

[Hotrod Ford]

I would rather whine over a PCB amp produced in fairly large numbers for 3-4k than a hand wired amp for 5-6k especially if it sounds great,
I have been repairing amps for number of years and hate working on PCB amps as much now as I did in the beginning, especially backsatge on the road, usually a royal pain in the ass

EDIT
I am also really surpriced when I saw Fuchs very unproffesional posts in this tread, A big thumbs down !

Hotrod:

First of all, when a PC board is applied and used properly, it should not be the weak link in a product. Remember, our tubes, jacks nor potentiometers are not on the main board, like many others either. Many people connect PC Boards with inexpensive amps, which is unfair. Bogner, Diezel, THD, and many other companies can build extremely high quality and consistent products with PC Boards.

We choose to put our money into oversized custom made transformers, precision made metalwork, and premium parts. Our circuit boards have thick, oversize traces, and full solder masks and silk screening. I can tell you if I did decide to make a PTP amp, I would make sure it looked as good as it sounded, in and out.

As far as professionalism, I'm afraid I do agree with Funkalicous that with the time and effort a builder puts into a point-to-point amp, the difference between a good looking amp and a not-so good looking amp should be minimal. If this makes me unprofessional to you, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Andy,
So the people building hardwire amps dont really care about premium parts, trannies etc, is that what you saying ?

maybe its just me
but I still prefer Hard wireing, just like I rather buy a handcrafted Guitar for more bucks rather a than a Korean CNC cut guitar, even if they both do a good job

Hey so Andy I really dont blame you on the PCBs , you want to make a efficient product , great, your doing fine !

BUT I dont know if you missed it but my point on proffesionalism,
I mainly pointing out that find it sad when a Pro builder try to mix with hobbyists on a homebuilding BB like this slamming other pros work sending out internal pic etc , no matter how bad certain people s products are for some reason, I seen this more than once from your side,
and this is the wrong way to do it imo, especially in your position,
rather bitter tasting

[Funkalicousgroove]

post removed to protect the innocent............

[FUCHSAUDIO]

If you wish to discuss this privately, I would gladly do it in at any level of detail you wish.

I would rather whine over a PCB amp produced in fairly large numbers for 3-4k than a hand wired amp for 5-6k especially if it sounds great,
I have been repairing amps for number of years and hate working on PCB amps as much now as I did in the beginning, especially backsatge on the road, usually a royal pain in the ass

EDIT
I am also really surpriced when I saw Fuchs very unproffesional posts in this tread, A big thumbs down !

Hotrod:

First of all, when a PC board is applied and used properly, it should not be the weak link in a product. Remember, our tubes, jacks nor potentiometers are not on the main board, like many others either. Many people connect PC Boards with inexpensive amps, which is unfair. Bogner, Diezel, THD, and many other companies can build extremely high quality and consistent products with PC Boards.

We choose to put our money into oversized custom made transformers, precision made metalwork, and premium parts. Our circuit boards have thick, oversize traces, and full solder masks and silk screening. I can tell you if I did decide to make a PTP amp, I would make sure it looked as good as it sounded, in and out.

As far as professionalism, I'm afraid I do agree with Funkalicous that with the time and effort a builder puts into a point-to-point amp, the difference between a good looking amp and a not-so good looking amp should be minimal. If this makes me unprofessional to you, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Andy,
So the people building hardwire amps dont really care about premium parts, trannies etc, is that what you saying ?

maybe its just me
but I still prefer Hard wireing, just like I rather buy a handcrafted Guitar for more bucks rather a than a Korean CNC cut guitar, even if they both do a good job

Hey so Andy I really dont blame you on the PCBs , you want to make a efficient product , great, your doing fine !

BUT I dont know if you missed it but my point on proffesionalism,
I mainly pointing out that find it sad when a Pro builder try to mix with hobbyists on a homebuilding BB like this slamming other pros work sending out internal pic etc , no matter how bad certain people s products are for some reason, I seen this more than once from your side,
and this is the wrong way to do it imo, especially in your position,
rather bitter tasting

[Allynmey]

I'm mostly a hand wired guy but, Andy does nice work! I don't think there is anything wrong with a well laid out PCB IMO.

[Allynmey]

I'm mostly a hand wired guy but, Andy does nice work! I don't think there is anything wrong with a well laid out PCB IMO.

[drz400]

This whole PCB vs handwiring sounding different is bullshit, sorry
I have seen comparisons on Spectrum, full freq response and transient bursts tests my father (engineer at Bell Labs) showed me when he was alive where he analyzed two identical HIFi tube amps, and of course ears were used as well. The only differences we found were tubes.

The problem with most people’s comparisons is they have never heard two amps where EVERYTHING is identical except 1 PCB and the other hand wired. A 2oz copper board Double sided, plated thru holes with wide traces and hand wiring to the tube sockets and pots gives you the best of both worlds. It is essentially an eyelet board with pre attached wires. When you look at Marshalls first attempt to switch in the 70's they used tiny crappy traces, different transformers and voltages and changed location of parts as well as different caps. Fender totally butchered their attempts as well.

IF a PCB is double sided has fat traces that are equal to the same copper as the wire, same layout, minimal trace length, there can be no possible reason for the amps to sound different. Just that the PCB amp will be more consistent. I've worked on expensive hand wired amps that had broken capacitors directly soldered to a pot, the solid wire lead broke cause it had no give room. A reason to use a turret, eyelet, strip board is because the amp is so simple it doesn’t require a PCB, hand wiring is easier and more cost effective for small production simple amps. The other reason to do it is if you are constantly swapping out parts values, since if you are not experienced you can tear up pads. Most small amp builders are not savvy enough to design a correct PCB and larger companies don’t have a clue as to what sounds good and hire fresh out of school engineers with no real world experience. But somewhere there is a correct way to do it. A good PCB can be the same as a good eyelet board, just more consistent. BTW, I think the Bruno's don’t look that great, The 2rocks are way worse, kind of scary. Hand wired amps can be nice looking, the Komets are nicely made but they hum, at least the ones I have seen. If a PCB is smartly done, circuit is finalized, I prefer it. It is also easier to service if there are parts designators (and no goop).

How do you record your music?? Does the mixing board have a PCB?

CNC and guitars is another funny one, what the hell is the difference.
CNC's dont spit out guitars, they just cut shapes that are programmed by an artist. It is a computer controlled router, that is all. All the hand sanding still needs to be done. There isnt one self respecting guitar company who doesn’t use CNC, a Lot of them make you think they hand cut their own parts when the really job out some of the process to someone with a CNC. I suppose you would prefer an old hand fret slotted fingerboard maybe with a miter box and a hand saw compared to accurate CNC fret slotted fret placement?

Here is some more reading and it basically boils down to "most" companies that use PCB are larger companies who don’t care. But there is no reason why a PCB amp cant be made to sound the same as a hand wired amp.
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/p ... -to-pt.htm

Sorry for the rant but I cant help it.

[Funkalicousgroove]

I'm TOTALLY with you, I was in a buddy's Diezel VH4 the other day and there is absoluteley no possible way that amp could be wired PTP, and it sounds ABSOLUTELEY FANTASTIC! the build quality was top-notch!

Randall Aiken offers an interesting solution: Use turrets on a PCB, that way repairs/mods are easy and you get all the benefits of PCB and PTP. I know that My PCB guy can stake turrets just as easily as plated-through holes.

[drz400]

I'm TOTALLY with you, I was in a buddy's Diezel VH4 the other day and there is absoluteley no possible way that amp could be wired PTP, and it sounds ABSOLUTELEY FANTASTIC! the build quality was top-notch!

Randall Aiken offers an interesting solution: Use turrets on a PCB, that way repairs/mods are easy and you get all the benefits of PCB and PTP. I know that My PCB guy can stake turrets just as easily as plated-through holes.

really!
The VH4 I saw was a mess, most the parts were wire sculpture on top of the board, way too many wires running everywhere, very small traces. The amp had oscillation problems as well, the Herbert looked better but still had wire sculpture.
Now Randall, that is different, he does nice stuff. In fact there is also a new Gibson amp that is done that way and made in China! designed by Pytr Belov (sp?) PCB with turrets everywhere.

[BobW]

you guys have heard all of this before, but here's my two cents worth on the previous comments and points of view:

The problem with most peoples comparisons is they have never heard two amps where EVERYTHING is identical except 1 PCB and the other handwired.

I fully agree, otherwise there is no point of reference for the comparison.

I have done several conversions on some of the new JTM 45 reissues as well as JCM 800 from PCB to Turrett boards and discover a noticeable differance in frequency responce as well as a harmonic eveness especially in the upper frequencies, also the overall feel of the amp changes as well. The best amps I have ever Played and heard live and recorded have been with Turrett or PTP style amps.

The comparison here accounts for ALL the amplifier differences and not just the PCB vs. turret.

from a manufacturing stand point it makes perfect sence but from a tonal or sonic stand point I don't care what anybody says PCB boards do not sound as good as point to point. Don't we all know this by now!!

again a broad statement like this does not account for only the PCB vs turrent/hand wired differences alone.

To say Hardwiring is superior over PCBs is plain faulty logic, period.

Both have their pros and cons for produceability, and both can have great or poor layouts.
PCBs are great for a final design and produceability, but can be difficult to work on, and I have felt the pain of working under less than ideal conditions, been there done that.
Hardwired amps can look like a work of art, but ARE more labor intensive = more expensive.
A good PCB layout can eliminate noise, stray capacitance, etc., but so can a good hand wired amp. If you are a manufacturer, it makes good business sense to make a PCB design, your overall profit margin will be higher.
Claiming handwiring is superior to PCBs is simply wrong, but probably sells a few more units as a bonus. This is similar to the argument vintage guitar sellers use. "mine sounds the best, but it' expensive and you can't afford it."

Sorry for my rant too.

[Funkalicousgroove]

I was inside his VH4 and inside his Herbert, both were wired in a very clean manner, all good quality parts, double sided PCB's with 2oz traces, and with all the intense wiring/switching I could certainly see the Price tag(considering transit to the US and Duties of course). I was also inside a VHT Pitbull Ultralead, also VERY clean (And it sounds great) and of course MANY SLO's.


Even the great HAD made a few amps 100% PCB, at least 1 ODS that I Know of (A blue suede one).

[Dai H.]

This whole PCB vs handwiring sounding different is bullshit, sorry

yeah, there is nothing inherently good sounding or bad sounding about PTP or PCB construction. Those are just ways of connecting things. Just a lot of ignorance, myth, and marketing BS that is out there.

[FUCHSAUDIO]