What distinguishes a SSS from a Dumbleland?

[Bear]

Especially as I gather that some Dumblelands had reverb, too. Comparing the newly disclosed SSS schem from the Dumbleland in the files section, I cannot tell what is simply evolution of circuits over time and what is the Dumbleland-ness or SSS-ness of each.

[talbany]

Especially as I gather that some Dumblelands had reverb, too. Comparing the newly disclosed SSS schem from the Dumbleland in the files section, I cannot tell what is simply evolution of circuits over time and what is the Dumbleland-ness or SSS-ness of each.

Taken from my notes..Most info here provided by Max and other notes I've taken over the years..

Dumblelands are alway at least 150 watt or more (300SL = 300W) and you could order them Dumble catalogue of the late seventies with or without reverb. But I don't know of a Dumbleland 150 Watt with reverb. But Dumbleland 300SLs with options (reverb and FET input) have been made. As far as I know at least one of the 300SLs has a true plate reverb (instead of springs).

A Dumbleland you could order for bass or for guitar. Some, that have been made for guitar later where used by bass players and vice-versa.

The SSS was introduced almost 10 years after the first Dumble monsters appeared. At first (look at #001) it was made as a "Twin reverb, as it should be, if they only had some engeneers at the Fender factory!"

So #001 is 100 Watt 4 x 6L6 a combo with reverb and (a #1 special) true frequency "Vibrato.

As a "clean amp with step filters" the preamp of a SSS has a lot in common with the Dumblelands of the same time. But the early SSSs have a tiny bit more "glass" in the sound, while in direct comparision a Dumbleland preamp sounds a tiny bit more "natural", broader and orchestral. And beeing introduced after the ODS they all had FET inputs.

A SSS is a (lead-) guitar amp, period. A Dumbleland is a broader concept. As guitarists liked the SSS, they evolved into a own family (100 watt, 120 watt, 150 Watt) and the SSS 150 watt replaced the 150 Watt version of the Dumbleland Special for Guitar, when around 1980 the production of the 150W version of Dumblelands was finished (Blackface 300SLs have still been produced for some time after the 150Watt was stopped, some for guitar (preamp very similar to SSS) and some for bass.

Some technical specs that are most important for the detailed EQ shaping and are a bit different anyway in every individual (custom made) Dumble amp - the preamp of a Dumbleland 300SL for Guitar with Reverb and FET will be very similar to the preamp of a SSS 150 Watt.

The most important technical differences vs. a Dumbleland are

Different use of the two systems of the second - second in the sense of the "signal path without reverb"- the recovery amp after the Filters and the reverb mixer. This will make of course a difference in sound.

All SSS I know of have reverb. The only Dumbleland 150 Watt I know of (even none of the Dumblelands for Guitar) that had a reverb ist the very special "Pentode Amp".

All SSS I know of have the 7025 PI and the 7025 Driver instead of the 12 AU7 and 12BH7 of the Dumblelands

At least two of the 150 Watt SSS (and some of the 100 Watt SSS too) did have a Volume for the FET input I don't know of a Dumbleland Special 150 watt (including those for guitar) that had a FET input (some 300SL do!).

Different OT and PT.. As far as I remeber the DL 150 Watt used Triad Iron and the DL 300 SL the same as a Ampeg SVT or V9.

The Pentode Alligator SSS had Music man Power and output and ran at 700v

Similarities:

In all the Dumblelands and SSS I know of you will find some special feedback_loops, interacting preamp stages and so on.)



Tony

[Bear]

Different use of the two systems of the second - second in the sense of the "signal path without reverb"- the recovery amp after the Filters and the reverb mixer. This will make of course a difference in sound.

Thanks for the extensive info, Tony. This one tidbit particularly interests me, since the Dumbleland schem that is in the files seems to be missing the post-filter recovery stage so it's hard to get an idea of how they differ. I get a feeling that it might be this and the PI-driver stages that account for a lot of the differences between the two species of amp.

[talbany]

Bear
I would tend to agree with you on the CF mixer buffer/ PI driver having much to do with the timbre And feel..The filters would tend to add to the glassy lead type tones on those SSS"s that had them along with the Extra gain stage after the filters..
Perhaps just the facts Max can offer up his opinion as well..
Tony

[Stratoblaster]

Hi All,
Thought I should chime in for once for those of us interested primarily in the EJ & SRV SSS tones.
It appears from what Ive read , those newer generation SSS amps may only have 3 preamp + PI + Driver tube = 5 tubes
Not the 7 that are documented in the more complex earlier 100 watt ones.

From this I would deduct that the 2 Reverb CF/mixer tubes would be omitted in those amps along with alot of their feedback networks too?
Interesting given those touting the CF/mixer tubes being a part of the SSS "magic".
Or maybey HAD found a way to include a CF mixer with only 2 reverb tubes to play with?


Cheers,
Mark

[qtone]

Thanks for the detailed post I was asking Greg D about this the other day.
I have learned more about these amps over the past 3 months then I can soak up.. Hearing them is quite something... The SSS the ODSR and the Phoenix are all 3 different sounding amps they all have that amazing hi fi eq though.
I can see why Stevie called it the King tone console its very much like the faders on a great board you can just dial in the perfect sound for you.
This post from Tony helps put them all into perspective for me sound wise.
I have the 3 mentioned above to listen too and compare but have not played or heard a Dumbleland or Winterland in person.. outside of Tommy Shannons rig and I dont think I even know what it was at the time..
I do remember the burnt orange suede cabs he had though...

[Bear]

From this I would deduct that the 2 Reverb CF/mixer tubes would be omitted in those amps along with alot of their feedback networks too?
Interesting given those touting the CF/mixer tubes being a part of the SSS "magic".
Or maybey HAD found a way to include a CF mixer with only 2 reverb tubes to play with?

You don't suppose he used MOSFET source followers instead? Not a serious speculation for HAD, but that's something that I had in mind to play with in a few places. Well, every CF place, really.

[Max]

Tony posted what's IMO a brilliant short summary. The only thing that I would like to add is that AFAIR there's at least one SSS 150W with a 12AU7 PI and a 12BH7 driver.

Here http://web.archive.org/web/200802091812 ... ble-e.html you'll find SSS and DL300SL data sheets with the tube compliment.

I've attached two pictures of a DL300SL with FET input and 6 step filters. AFAIR the PI is a 12AU7 and the two driver tubes are 12BH7.

Based on my personal impressions when playing these amps I personally think of the SSS100W and 150W, the DL150W and 300W and the ODS150W amps as some kind of "family" with some common and some very individual character traits.

I've attached a picture of a family reunion with some pert child acting up with the adults.

And here's a video a of a 1986 gathering of two more family members (see around 0:55): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltkhC5w7O80

And a solo at around 3:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjFUPya5v8

Have fun!

Max

[tictac]

Max,

The Dumbleland in the files section has a 12AU7/12BH7 driver that looks very much like an early McIntosh driver which is plate driven. (see attached) Do you know if such really is the case or is the 12AU7/12BH7 driver Dumble used a direct coupled cathode?

TT

[Stratoblaster]

From this I would deduct that the 2 Reverb CF/mixer tubes would be omitted in those amps along with alot of their feedback networks too?
Interesting given those touting the CF/mixer tubes being a part of the SSS "magic".
Or maybey HAD found a way to include a CF mixer with only 2 reverb tubes to play with?

You don't suppose he used MOSFET source followers instead? Not a serious speculation for HAD, but that's something that I had in mind to play with in a few places. Well, every CF place, really.

Bear, I dont know very much on that topic but sounds like a concept well worth looking into.
Tony, excellent info, comprehensive and to the point, many thanks

[Dumbbell]

Thanks for the detailed post I was asking Greg D about this the other day.
I have learned more about these amps over the past 3 months then I can soak up.. Hearing them is quite something... The SSS the ODSR and the Phoenix are all 3 different sounding amps they all have that amazing hi fi eq though.
I can see why Stevie called it the King tone console its very much like the faders on a great board you can just dial in the perfect sound for you.
This post from Tony helps put them all into perspective for me sound wise.
I have the 3 mentioned above to listen too and compare but have not played or heard a Dumbleland or Winterland in person.. outside of Tommy Shannons rig and I dont think I even know what it was at the time..
I do remember the burnt orange suede cabs he had though...

What is the Phoenix?

[jelle]

That is an ODS preamp in the Dumbleator style box.