Help Me Choose a Tube Set with a $600 budget for my SSS

[ER]

Hey mavguy-

Have you heard the Cerwin-vega copy from Weber? I think they call it the CV123 or something like that.

[212Mavguy]

No I haven't heard that speaker. Specs?

[bigwebb83]

Isn't your SSS 100 watts?
The 2rock speaker is 65 watts power handling correct?
Just thinking outloud here

Todd

I think they are rated at 100watts

Nope, the Two-Rock ET65 is only 65w's I'd suggest using another one with it or you'll risk blowing the (1) you have if you're using it at high volumes.

75 watts. this is what i have http://www.humbuckermusic.com/two-rock- ... black.html

[bigwebb83]

ok guys. Gut shots have been posted. Detailed ones at that. Now it's time to see how many people actually wanted them in order to assist me vs how many people wanted them just to have them.... I'd really appreciate some advice on a direction to go with tubes. I WANT: Nice round tone with plenty of sparkle and clarity. I DON'T WANT: Ice Picky highs, flubby bass.

Any help is always appreciated. Maybe one day I'll be in a position to give back.

[wjdunham]

ok guys. Gut shots have been posted. Detailed ones at that. Now it's time to see how many people actually wanted them in order to assist me vs how many people wanted them just to have them.... I'd really appreciate some advice on a direction to go with tubes. I WANT: Nice round tone with plenty of sparkle and clarity. I DON'T WANT: Ice Picky highs, flubby bass.

Any help is always appreciated. Maybe one day I'll be in a position to give back.

Just to be clear, does the amp now have ice-pickey highs and flubby bass?

Bill

[bigwebb83]

no it does not. I've posted multiple clips. You can be the judge for yourself.

[vibratoking]

ok guys. Gut shots have been posted. Detailed ones at that. Now it's time to see how many people actually wanted them in order to assist me vs how many people wanted them just to have them

Really? We already had SSS gutshots prior to your thread. The pics were posted April 16, 2012.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=90

Your comment about people really wanting to help you vs just getting pics sounds sarcastic and offensive to me. You have had plenty of helpful responses to your question albeit coupled with some not so helpful ones. Which of the helpful comments have you pursued?

I don't think you can find a good full set of NOS tubes at your price point. So you are limited with what you can do. I don't think the heart of the SSS is in the output tubes anyway. As stated earlier, the heart of the tone is not coming from the reverb tubes either. I would try to focus on preamp tubes if I were you. Get some new stuff, especially JJs, as well as some VOS RCA, GE, Sylvania, etc... and start rolling them through the different positions and listen closely. There are plenty of threads on preamp tubes here. I don't think anyone here has a magic formula for any SSS, whether it is original or Ceriatone. You are in a position of experimenting so I would not expect a recipe for great tone with an amp like yours. Take a look at what Brandon is using in his HPD. That's a great start and it is not NOS stuff.

[ER]

The way to think about it is that with a mU of around 100 for a 12ax7 each stage the signal is amplified 100 times so the earlier the stage the more those qualities are amplified so you would tweak tubes starting with V1 then V2 and so on.

For the type of tone you describe, I think a Telefunken is hard to beat for v1, and Mullards for V2 and PI. I wouldn't worry to much about the reverb drivers, or the output tubes, just make sure they're well balanced-that goes for the output driver too.

With a nice telefunken in V1 the best way I can describe it is it sounds like "a brand new set of strings" without changing your strings. We're not concerned with "creamy overdrive" or taming problematic frequencies here. Sparkle, definition, frame of tone.

Where are you located? Maybe someone local who has a variety of tubes could do a tube rolling session with you...

Just try one tube at a time as you budget allows and spend some time with it.

Also I would really think about a larger (2-4 speaker) preferably closed back cabinet, borrow someone's marshall cab and aside from the speakers tone see if the closed back/multiple drivers does anything for you. Other than Kaiser's Combo with a JBL and Lindley's 2x12 (which may have been sealed back and likely altec speakers) I believe most SSS were used with split-sealed 4x12s with EVs (hire a roadie ).

A lot of the celestion hype is based on Robben Ford's early preference for a set of older 12-65's in an open back and for OD tones, not the same deal as an SSS. HAD built the SSS as a "twin made right" so you're looking for the american fender sound speaker wise. Also for a long time EVs weren't available OEM so the cloner companies had to find an available suitable (and/or more affordable) COMPROMISE to fill orders. Even the EV was a compromise for the no longer available altecs for dumble or the fragile JBLs. If you really want to stick with a single speaker in an open back I would try an EVM15L but that's just me. Of course a JBL D130 (not 130f) would sound freaking stelar but no promises on reliability. Maybe you'll get lucky and come across an old 2-15 showman cabinet or some blonde era cabinets. Or a Jerry style 3-12 with JBLs! With a personal amp you aren't limited to the choice a manufacturer is so don't look to the mass available for the "best" choice. Don't be afraid to go off the beaten path to find YOUR tone. Landau uses tonespoters, Landreth uses 30's in a sealed 2-12 bandmaster cab, Lowell used marshall 4-10 "bayonet" cabs. There are a million valid tones.

I really think the speakers and cabinet are where you'll get closer to what you're looking for. Remember double the amplifier power is only good for 3dB, as is doubling the number of speakers, as is using a speaker that is 3db more efficient in the first place. 12-65=97dB, 12L=100dB. Now if you need to turn you amp up louder to get the OD and power tubes humming nicely the 12-65 may be the best choice. This is NOT the case with a SSS. Efficient speaker simply don't have to work as hard to bring out the full spectrum of sound, are more sensitive to nuance and touch, and generally impart less color to the sound being reproduced. All good things in keeping with the vibe of the Steel String Singer amplifier concept.

-ER

[Structo]

I agree.

The preamp tubes is where a lot of tone lives.

The speakers play a very important role in Dumble amps.

I would guess that most use the Celestion G12-65's with the EV 12L Classic as another good choice.

[wjdunham]

no it does not. I've posted multiple clips. You can be the judge for yourself.

Sorry, did I miss the clips? I don's see them in the thread anywhere.
Bill

[Structo]

Here they are Bill

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 812#217812

[bigwebb83]

I don't think you can find a good full set of NOS tubes at your price point. So you are limited with what you can do. I don't think the heart of the SSS is in the output tubes anyway. As stated earlier, the heart of the tone is not coming from the reverb tubes either. I would try to focus on preamp tubes if I were you. Get some new stuff, especially JJs, as well as some VOS RCA, GE, Sylvania, etc... and start rolling them through the different positions and listen closely. There are plenty of threads on preamp tubes here. I don't think anyone here has a magic formula for any SSS, whether it is original or Ceriatone. You are in a position of experimenting so I would not expect a recipe for great tone with an amp like yours. Take a look at what Brandon is using in his HPD. That's a great start and it is not NOS stuff.

Very helpful. Thank you for the second half of your post. That is a great starting point for me. Now I can narrow my focus to the areas you mentioned. I've got a couuple nos 12ax7's that I haven't gotten around to doing anything with. I'll throw those in first.

[bigwebb83]

Here they are Bill

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 812#217812

here is a grouping of all the clips I've done messing with the amp. http://soundcloud.com/bigwebb83/sets/ce ... ss-clips-1

[bigwebb83]

I agree.

The preamp tubes is where a lot of tone lives.

The speakers play a very important role in Dumble amps.

I would guess that most use the Celestion G12-65's with the EV 12L Classic as another good choice.

Thank you for this suggestion. I took the RCA I had and switched it out with v1 which is a TAD ecc83 and it made a much more significant difference than I was thinking based off of the comments on here.

[Max]

Other than Kaiser's Combo with a JBL and Lindley's 2x12 (which may have been sealed back and likely altec speakers) I believe most SSS were used with split-sealed 4x12s with EVs (hire a roadie ).

Lindley's 2x12" cabinets I know are usual open back (oval hole) cabinets. But as he has (or at least had) several, it's of course possible that for whatever reasons he changed the back of one I don't know to be closed. Todd Sharp did the same with his two 2x12" Dumble cabinets, but AFAIK after #0120 and #121 left him.

The Dumble 4x12" cabinets I know aren't split-sealed. IMO this is a rumor that's probably based on how they look. The Dumble 4x12" cabinets I know are usual 4x12 cabinets with one compartement for all the four speakers.

AFAIK the original Dumble SSSs and Dumblelands have been used together with more or less all the different speaker cabinets you'll find in one of the Dumble price lists loaded with JBL (mid seventies), Altec (late seventies), and EVM speakers (after the introduction of the EVM-12L).

IMO an open back Dumble 2x12" loaded with 2 EVM 12L speakers is a good compromise in regard to transportability and performance and together with a 100W or 150W SSS or a Dumbleland 150W or 300SL will IMO be a good match in regard to tone, too. If needed they can be stacked. Here are two Dumbleland 300SL amps - each one thru a single open back Dumble 2x12" cabinet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltkhC5w7O80

Tubes:
In the original SSSs and Dumblelands you'll find more or less the same brands as in the other Dumble amps of the corresponding period: AFAIR I've seen for example GE 6L6GC, Philips Sylvania 6L6 STR (Groove Tubes), GE6550A, Chinese (Groove Tubes) KT88, GE 12AX7, GE 12AT7, GE 5751, Mullard ECC83 (different versions), Philips Sylvania 7025 (different versions), Amperex ECC83, GE12BH7, RCA 12BH7 in original Dumblelands and SSSs and signed and/or labelled by Alexander Dumble.

And AFAIK many of the current sellers of current production tubes claim to sell some kind of replicas of some of the tubes mentioned above. But I don't know if this is true or just the usual marketing hype.

In the end it's IMO all only a question of personal taste.

Cheers,

Max