'Dumble Lives On' Drew Berlin Premier Guitar interview

[Bombacaototal]

... Whatever he called a SSS is a SSS ...

And how do you know he called #8 in your SSS list "Steel String Singer" and not “Dumble Special”?

Ok, so the guys who claim to know everything, (ie Drew Berlin) are misleading everyone then with wrong information by calling it SSS (attached)

[ubikwidus]

I was in contact with the DPS last year about one of my Dumble modified Princetons (a gutshot for your viewing pleasure); It's an early 70s build. I was told that the ledger, which they built off Dumble's records, was incomplete. I was told that the earliest and most recent builds may not be in their records. Still it seems like the Dumble branded amps would be easier to keep track of.

[Max]

Ok, so the guys who claim to know everything, (ie Drew Berlin) are misleading everyone then with wrong information by calling it SSS (attached)

I may have expressed myself in a confusing way: I have absolutely no objection to the assumption that Alexander Dumble converted this Dumble Special into a Steel String Singer and then named it accordingly.

In this case, as I understand it, the result would be the following:

According to Steven Rosen, Alexander Dumble told him about SRV in the 1987 interview: "He's got four of my Steel String Singers" (A Dumble Book, page 189).
Of these four, only three are listed in your SSS list (your #6, your #7, and your #9). Together with the Dumble Special (your #8), which according to D. Berlin was converted into an SSS, and the fourth SSS from SRV, that would make a total of at least 13 Steel String Singers.

And he built at least (as far as I know) 13 ODRS/ODSRs with the serial numbers 009, 0013, 0015, 0029, 0030, 0057, 0058, 0059, 0060, 008x, 0120 (150W), 0121 (150W), 0137 (120W).

Do you agree with that?

I was in contact with the DPS last year about one of my Dumble modified Princetons (a gutshot for your viewing pleasure); It's an early 70s build. I was told that the ledger, which they built off Dumble's records, was incomplete. I was told that the earliest and most recent builds may not be in their records. Still it seems like the Dumble branded amps would be easier to keep track of.

Thanks for the info and the gutshot. For a variety of reasons, I've always thought it rather unlikely that the DPS has complete records relating to the equipment built by A.Dumble in the 1960s and 1970s (Santa Cruz era) for his customers in the USA and for export to Europe.

[martin manning]

In my opinion, a discussion about the correct number of SSS, ODR, DL, etc. amplifiers built by Alexander Dumble during his lifetime makes little sense without the participants in that discussion first agreeing on which kind of amplifier should be included in each list.

I would agree, and that requires getting down to the block diagram level, and deciding where to draw the line between a species and a variant, and how to count a conversion from one species to another. This would take some careful review of the records, which I guess we now know are incomplete. I'm not sure that it matters to anyone other than collectors. I'm much more interested in the circuits.

[Bombacaototal]

According to Steven Rosen, Alexander Dumble told him about SRV in the 1987 interview: "He's got four of my Steel String Singers" (A Dumble Book, page 189).
Of these four, only three are listed in your SSS list (your #6, your #7, and your #9). Together with the Dumble Special (your #8), which according to D. Berlin was converted into an SSS, and the fourth SSS from SRV, that would make a total of at least 13 Steel String Singers.

I tend to think that #008 was the 4th, but obvioulsy no way to confirm

And he built at least (as far as I know) 13 ODRS/ODSRs with the serial numbers 009, 0013, 0015, 0029, 0030, 0057, 0058, 0059, 0060, 008x, 0120 (150W), 0121 (150W), 0137 (120W).

Do you agree with that?

Not really. I have pics of 10 amps with overdrive reverb label (the old ones called Overdrive reveb special). #13 is actually labled Overdrive Special (not overdrive reverb) - Not counted on the 10.

#28 (was at Namm), 0057 (santana), 0058 (vitto), 0059 (mayer/keith urban), 0060 (purple combo - now with Santana), Lowell George (with bonamassa), There is one which looks idential to Lowell's amp but has an extra pilot for when the Overdrive is one (was in Japan and recently up for sale by Drew), #3X (attached), #72 (light brown suede, red toggles), #73 (dark brown suede and vox grill)

I have 2 additional ones which are labled Overdrive Special but have reverb, #80 and #137 - and the #13 previously mentioned

So if you add the ODS to the ODR above = 13 plus the ODS 120 and 121 would make it 15.

If we add the #9, #15, #29, #30 you mentioned, even more (are these labled as ODS or ODR?)

But as Martin said, the circuits are more interesting than the names he chose

[Max]

... I'm not sure that it matters to anyone other than collectors. I'm much more interested in the circuits.

In my opinion, the development of the circuit details of the devices built by Alexander Dumble is somewhat easier to understand in their respective historical (and thus also music-historical) context than in isolation. Therefore, I believe that knowledge of their historical and music-historical context is interesting not only from a collector's perspective.

... So if you add the ODS to the ODR above = 13 plus the ODS 120 and 121 would make it 15. If we add the #9, #15, #29, #30 you mentioned, even more (are these labled as ODS or ODR?)

009 is labeled ODS, 0015,0029,0030 ODR. I forgot to list the numbers 0072 and 0073. So if at least some of the amplifiers you listed without a serial number have different serial numbers than the ones I listed maybe there are actually more ODR amplifiers than D. Berlin thinks.

[martin manning]

... I'm not sure that it matters to anyone other than collectors. I'm much more interested in the circuits.

In my opinion, the development of the circuit details of the devices built by Alexander Dumble is somewhat easier to understand in their respective historical (and thus also music-historical) context than in isolation. Therefore, I believe that knowledge of their historical and music-historical context is interesting not only from a collector's perspective.

I don't disagree, but my point is that it doesn't matter to me how many of any particular variant were made, except as noted above, where higher numbers might indicate a preference by customers. Like the ODS, the SSS seems to have been constantly evolving, with later versions and retrofits made to earlier versions reflecting HAD's innovations and customer feedback or requests. Did the basic topology change from what appears in 005, other than variations in the output section power?

[Max]

The website http://dumble.com/ makes the following claim:

"Dumble.com is maintained by the successor to Mr. Dumble’s business, who owns … records and databases of all authentic DUMBLE® amplifiers ever in existence sufficient to verify authenticity. …"

This claim implies, at least according to my understanding of logic, that the operators of this website/DPS know exactly the number of SSS and ODRS amplifiers manufactured by A. Dumble. Therefore, a false statement of this number would imply, at least according to my understanding of logic, that the above-quoted claim is incorrect and therefore misleading.

And for this reason, I believe it is interesting to compare the number of ODR(S) amplifiers and SSS amplifiers verifiable by images (internet, "A Dumble Book ", etc.) with the figures provided by DPS.

Did the basic topology change from what appears in 005, other than variations in the output section power?

If I remember correctly, Brandon reported in some threads here (see also this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95zbzaOfT0) that the SSS 150W #005 he knows differes in a number of parameters from another SSS 150W (SRV version) he also knows.

So in my opinion, the answer to your question depends on what exactly you mean by “basic topology” and whether you accordingly consider differences, such as those reported by Brandon, to be of the same basic topology or of a different basic topology.

[martin manning]

The website http://dumble.com/ makes the following claim:

"Dumble.com is maintained by the successor to Mr. Dumble’s business, who owns … records and databases of all authentic DUMBLE® amplifiers ever in existence sufficient to verify authenticity. …"

This claim implies, at least according to my understanding of logic, that the operators of this website/DPS know exactly the number of SSS and ODRS amplifiers manufactured by A. Dumble. Therefore, a false statement of this number would imply, at least according to my understanding of logic, that the above-quoted claim is incorrect and therefore misleading.

And for this reason, I believe it is interesting to compare the number of ODR(S) amplifiers and SSS amplifiers verifiable by images (internet, "A Dumble Book ", etc.) with the figures provided by DPS.

They are in possession of HAD's records, however complete or incomplete they might be, and they will no doubt be using that information for whatever purpose suits them. I don't expect any circuit details to come out of DPS (or any other boutique amplifier seller), as that is an essential part of their marketing strategy:

"In addition to continuing to manufacture and sell DUMBLE® amplifiers, new and exciting product lines and services are in the works... all of which are and will continue to honor the legacy of Mr. Dumble (albeit in the mysterious “Dumble” fashion)."

Did the basic topology change from what appears in 005, other than variations in the output section power?

If I remember correctly, Brandon reported in some threads here (see also this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95zbzaOfT0) that the SSS 150W #005 he knows differes in a number of parameters from another SSS 150W (SRV version) he also knows.

Thanks for the link!

So in my opinion, the answer to your question depends on what exactly you mean by “basic topology” and whether you accordingly consider differences, such as those reported by Brandon, to be of the same basic topology or of a different basic topology.

It seems that it was common for HAD to update older models to include elements of his more recent circuits, and that adds to the confusion. AFAIK it was unusual to convert one type of amplifier to another, in the sense that its basic topology was changed. One such example is the Dumble Special to SSS conversion for SRV shown in the NAMM show videos (picture above https://ampgarage.com/forum/download/fi ... &mode=view). I would say that the SSS are all of the same topology with the exception of any that don't have the post-PI driver stage. Refer to this article for a general discussion of "circuit topology": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_t ... lectrical)

[Max]

Thanks for the link to the Wikipedia explanations.

... AFAIK it was unusual to convert one type of amplifier to another, in the sense that its basic topology was changed. One such example is the Dumble Special to SSS conversion for SRV shown in the NAMM show videos (picture above https://ampgarage.com/forum/download/fi ... &mode=view) ... .

In order to understand this correctly, I would like to ask you to explain in what respect(s), from your perspective, did A. Dumble change the "basic topology" of this "Dumble Special" when converting it for SRV?

[martin manning]

The answer is I don't know. I would need to see before and after schematics, or at least block diagrams. One obvious thing is the filter selector knobs and markings on the front panel are not original to that amp, and that alone qualifies as a topology change. The story told by Berlin is here: https://youtu.be/rVF7WhnAfkk?t=80.

[Max]

... One obvious thing is the filter selector knobs and markings on the front panel are not original to that amp, and that alone qualifies as a topology change. The story told by Berlin is here: https://youtu.be/rVF7WhnAfkk?t=80.

In the video you linked, I couldn't find any comments from D. Berlin indicating that the selector knobs and markings on the front panel weren't present before the SRV conversion. So why do you think that?

[martin manning]

Different size knobs, inaccurate positioning, and different indicator markings. Actually looks pretty crudely done.

[Max]

Different size knobs, inaccurate positioning, and different indicator markings. Actually looks pretty crudely done.

As can be seen from Dumbleland Special 150W #008 (pictures for example in "A Dumble Book" on page 90 and on this picture here https://ampgarage.com/forum/download/fi ... &mode=view in the lower right corner), this combination of large knobs with numbered markings and two smaller ones with simple line markings for the two filter rotary switches, as well as sometimes a somewhat sloppy labeling in detail, is AFAIK completely normal for the frontplates of his very early 6550A/KT88 amplifiers for bass and guitar and is therefore, in my opinion, not an "obvious" indication of a modification.

So, in my opinion, during his emergency surgery for SRV, A. Dumble probably (in the case that this "Dumble Special" was originally intended for bass) only had to modify the amp "to accommodate the guitar range" (see in this interview https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22012 A. Dumble's comments on the interviewer's remark: "Stevie Ray Vaughan calls his steel string singer the "King Tone Consoul").

In the 1987 interview with Steven Rosen, A. Dumble says ... "by 1968/1969 I was making some ... 200 watters. ... In fact, I've got one on tour with Stevie Ray Vaughn right now. One that I built way back in 1968! ..." (“A Dumble Book” page 186"). If this amplifier is actually this "Dumble Special", then after the theft of his first two Steel String Singers (silver and black) there would hardly have been time for extensive modifications. According to this thread https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30206 they were stolen on August 28, 1986 and returned before October 14, 1986.

In any case, A. Dumble had this "Dumble Special" (again? still?) when Steven Rosen conducted the interview with him in 1987, excerpts of which, including pictures of this "Dumble Special," were published in 1988 in the German-language magazine "Soundcheck" and later in "A Dumble Book," (see https://rockcellarmagazine.com/behind-t ... rd-dumble/). To my knowledge, there is btw no evidence, either by video or photo, that SRV ever used this "Dumble Special" at one of his public appearances.

[martin manning]

Well, who knows? I don't have access to the Dumble book. Berlin claims to have the correspondence between HAD and SRV, and that the amp is marked SSS on the back. Maybe it didn't have the post-PI driver in it originally and that was added? Need to see the documentation.