G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Overdrive Special, Steel String Singer, Dumbleland, Odyssey, Winterland, etc. -
Members Only

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

Thilo278
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:25 pm

G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Thilo278 »

Hello everyone :),

since that's my first post here i want to introduce myself. My name is Thilo, i'm German and I'm an 18 year old student.

Recently i bought a used Overtone Special and now i need a nice Combocabinet for it.
My choice of the speaker is a Celestion G12-65H. The only problem i have is, that i don't know whether i should get a 16ohm or an 8ohm speaker. (Price is 95€ for both)

Is there any difference between those two? When i want to add an external speaker cab in the future, which of the speakers is more practical?


Looking forward to your comments,

Thilo
JimiB
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:03 pm

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by JimiB »

16 ohm
so that
Your can use the highest impedance tap (supposed to sound the "best")
You can set the impedance to 8ohms and use the 16ohm speaker to see if that sounds better to you.
If you get another 16ohm speaker in the future you can use them both with the 8ohm (or 4ohm if you like the 16 into 8ohm tap trick) tap.
Thilo278
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Thilo278 »

Thanks for the answer :)

I thought it is extremely bad for the Power amp to exceed the impedance? (8 ohm amp to 16 ohm speaker for example)
JimiB
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:03 pm

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by JimiB »

It can be bad to go the other way 8ohm speaker into 16ohm tap.
Usually fender transformers and the like will handle a 100% impedance mismatch either way though.
User avatar
heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by heisthl »

JimiB wrote:It can be bad to go the other way 8ohm speaker into 16ohm tap.
Usually fender transformers and the like will handle a 100% impedance mismatch either way though.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! A 16ohm tap can drive an 8 ohm speaker all day and night without damage (you may not like the way it sounds). What you don't want to do is go the other way - an 8 ohm tap driving a 16 ohm speaker will store the energy it can't get rid of in the form of heat in the output transformer and could eventually burn it up. It's true that good quality iron can survive for a long time (years) as long as the mismatch is not too severe, in fact, some of the Real Deal combo amps have an 8 ohm speaker running off a single tap 4 ohm transformer.
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
User avatar
dave g
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:34 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by dave g »

heisthl wrote:
JimiB wrote:It can be bad to go the other way 8ohm speaker into 16ohm tap.
Usually fender transformers and the like will handle a 100% impedance mismatch either way though.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! A 16ohm tap can drive an 8 ohm speaker all day and night without damage (you may not like the way it sounds). What you don't want to do is go the other way - an 8 ohm tap driving a 16 ohm speaker will store the energy it can't get rid of in the form of heat in the output transformer and could eventually burn it up. It's true that good quality iron can survive for a long time (years) as long as the mismatch is not too severe, in fact, some of the Real Deal combo amps have an 8 ohm speaker running off a single tap 4 ohm transformer.
Actually, you have it exactly backwards, heisthl...draw the equivalent Thevenin circuits and you will see. A load impedance smaller than a source impedance results in more energy being dissipated in the source, while a load impedance larger than the source impedance simply results in less current draw and less total energy dissipated.

And no, you can't "store" energy as heat because it cannot be reclaimed or injected back into the circuit...heat is nothing but the energy dissipated by the real component of the impedance of a device. Like I said above, running a lower impedance load will result in more energy dissipated in the source, e.g. by the resistance of the transformer windings which can result in overheating and damage.
User avatar
heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by heisthl »

dave g wrote: Actually, you have it exactly backwards, heisthl...draw the equivalent Thevenin circuits and you will see. A load impedance smaller than a source impedance results in more energy being dissipated in the source, while a load impedance larger than the source impedance simply results in less current draw and less total energy dissipated.

And no, you can't "store" energy as heat because it cannot be reclaimed or injected back into the circuit...heat is nothing but the energy dissipated by the real component of the impedance of a device. Like I said above, running a lower impedance load will result in more energy dissipated in the source, e.g. by the resistance of the transformer windings which can result in overheating and damage.
Please tell me more - I was going under the assumption that transformers were designed so the secondary absorbed whatever energy the primary wanted to impart and that energy needed a path to ground equal to or less than the taps impedance and if it doesn't get it there is heat buildup in the transformer generated because the primary can't transfer it. Are you saying that a transformer will run cooler than normal if the speaker is of a higher impedance than the tap? Any chance you overlooked the heat build up of the primary in your calculations? What happens if you connect a really high impedance load like no speaker connected at all?
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
talbany
Posts: 4697
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:03 am
Location: Dumbleland

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by talbany »

The issue here is what load is being reflected to the output tube. Looking back at the output stage, this tube will operate differently depending on what load it is driving. The turns ratio of my output transformer will make an 8ohm speaker appear as a load more like 3,000 ohms, from the output tube's perspective.

Every tube has different parameters. But for triodes, a lower impedance means more power output and more distortion. A higher impedance means less power output but lower distortion. So if you connect a 8ohm speaker to a 16ohm tap on your amplifier's output transformer, the output tube is now seeing a lower impedance. It will be slightly more efficient - producing a little more power - but at the cost of added distortion. The opposite will happen when you connect a 16ohm speaker to an 8 ohm tap.

Neither mismatch will harm your output tubes. Even in the second case, when the tube is producing slightly less power, it is possible that you will crank up the volume knob to produce more power. When the tube is operating in Class A, it is actually working less hard when it's amplifying higher input signals, so it's not damaging anything. If your amp is not Class A, this may not be true.

Hope this makes sense

Tony VVT
Max
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:08 pm

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Max »

heisthl wrote:
dave g wrote: Actually, you have it exactly backwards, heisthl...draw the equivalent Thevenin circuits and you will see. A load impedance smaller than a source impedance results in more energy being dissipated in the source, while a load impedance larger than the source impedance simply results in less current draw and less total energy dissipated.

And no, you can't "store" energy as heat because it cannot be reclaimed or injected back into the circuit...heat is nothing but the energy dissipated by the real component of the impedance of a device. Like I said above, running a lower impedance load will result in more energy dissipated in the source, e.g. by the resistance of the transformer windings which can result in overheating and damage.
Please tell me more - I was going under the assumption that transformers were designed so the secondary absorbed whatever energy the primary wanted to impart and that energy needed a path to ground equal to or less than the taps impedance and if it doesn't get it there is heat buildup in the transformer generated because the primary can't transfer it. Are you saying that a transformer will run cooler than normal if the speaker is of a higher impedance than the tap? Any chance you overlooked the heat build up of the primary in your calculations? What happens if you connect a really high impedance load like no speaker connected at all?
Hi Guys,

because of my lack of technological knowledge I cannot chime in in your discussion, but perhaps it could be of interest for you, what an Electrovoice technican once has told me concerning this:

I asked him concerning an ODS-Combo with 4Ohms OT and 8 Ohms EVM 12-L, if - from a technical point of view - he would recommend to use a 8Ohms extension speaker in order to "heal" the "impedance mismatch".
He said surprisingly (for me): "No, no need to do so, better use it wih only one 8 Ohms speaker!!" and explained:

- There is not something like a fixed speaker impedance, it changes with ferquency. An EVM12L in working condition is more often near 6Ohms than near 8 Ohms.

- If you use an extension cab it has to be positioned with some care in order to avoid phase cancellation.

- I you use (he said) just one 8 Ohms speaker in the 4Ohms OT output you will:

a) loose some percent of maximum wattage but that this I would not perceive as a disturbing loss of loudness.

b) but gain less distortion in the power amp, because the power amp is under less stress, if you use only one 8OHms speaker with the 4 Ohms OT.

In the end he recommended not to use an extension cab if I can live with the small drop in loudness

I compared both combinations and - indeed- for my taste the "mismatched" Combo with only one EVM 12L was the one I liked better: More "musical" in my ears.

Cheers

Max
User avatar
heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by heisthl »

talbany wrote:The issue here is what load is being reflected to the output tube. Tony VVT
Really - I thought the issue was which direction of impedance mismatch was harder on the output transformer. Which way makes it run hotter and eventually fail? I know if you have no speaker connected you can make one fail. :oops:
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
User avatar
Rimy
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:48 pm
Location: VS, Germany

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Rimy »

the amp-book of gerald weber says that the missmatch of the speaker up to 100% is acceptable.
if you like the sound, is another story...
Fischerman
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:47 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Fischerman »

Really - I thought the issue was which direction of impedance mismatch was harder on the output transformer. Which way makes it run hotter and eventually fail? I know if you have no speaker connected you can make one fail.
This is the way I've always understood it.
Lower load on a higher tap = harder on the tubes.
Higher load on a lower tap = harder on the output transformer.
I've always heard that the real issue is high voltage spikes in the OT...and those occur when you have a higher load on a lower tap (like a 16ohm cab running off the 8ohm tap).

In any case, I've heard it too many times from folks that really know their stuff (the likes of Aiken...but I can't say it was specifically Aiken) that the one to avoid is higher load on a lower tap. That much I'm almost certain about.
User avatar
Structo
Posts: 15446
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:01 am
Location: Oregon

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by Structo »

This is why this topic is always so confusing.

It seems everybody has a different opinion.

What I do is always just try to match the numbers.

The way I heard it described, was some Amps (OT) can handle the mistmatch while others cannot very well.

I suppose it has to do with how robust the OT is.

I just try to keep the OT matched with the speaker load. :D

That way it will function as designed and shouldn't be a problem unless you exceed the power rating of the speaker.

Not for the next controversial topic.

Does runing the OT on the highest impedance with matching speaker always sound better because you are using all of the secondary winding?

Say on a 4-8-16 OT, will running it on 16 with a 16 ohm load, always sound better than say using a 8 ohm speaker on the 8 ohm tap?
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
fp2000
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: FL

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by fp2000 »

One step mismatch should be OK for most OT, but maybe not so much for most tubes like it's been already explained.
The important thing to remember is that the output section of a tube amps acts as a current power supply, as opposed to a voltage power supply (in the case of solid state amps).
A regular voltage power supply, like a battery for example, can handle loads that can go from infinity (or open), to as low as close to zero (or closer to a short), but the closer to a short you know what will happen right? do not try this at home please.
In a tube amp happens the opposite, the current power supply can handle a short, but not an open. With an open circuit, it will burn, just like a shorted battery if left on short for too long, especially if it's not designed to do that.
**************************
Failure is not an option... it comes bundled with the kit.
User avatar
heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: G12-65H: 16 Ohm or 8 Ohm, any difference?

Post by heisthl »

Look at these 2 web pages for answers - let me know your conclusions
http://aga.rru.com/FAQs/general.html#imp-1

http://aga.rru.com/FAQs/technical.html#imp-2
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
Post Reply