#102 Build started

Overdrive Special, Steel String Singer, Dumbleland, Odyssey, Winterland, etc. -
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Ang3lus
Posts: 243
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Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

sat down for a few more hours on the amp today,

changed bright switch to off/160p/270p

160p for strat/270p for humbuckers sounds best for me.

Tried all values from 22p-470p, I find those two to be the best.

Also, changed the OD trim ((I have it on the front panel)) to a 250k LOG pot, this seems to be the best middle ground for HBs and SCs.

I tried 500k/346k/100k/150k. 250k worked best

Also, I do not like the 450v B+, the bass is too muffled, raised the B+ to 472v, I like this a lot better.

found the problem with the FET, I accidently put a 20k trim pot, maybe that's why It's only slightly louder than the normal input ?

will change it tomorrow to 10k and test it.

Overall, I will keep the amp this way, classic TS with skyliner on a switch, High plate and 250k log trim pot are the biggest changes.

I'm using 5881s, but they hardly break up, so i'm gonna order some JJ 6L6s from antique and test it then.

What I like best about this setup is that I get the almost out of phasey sounds in OD, which is what I associate dumble with, I actually had looked at my guitar to see if i'm in out of phase mode, it's a delightful sound for me.

I don't think I will make anymore drastic changes, will close it up soon enough.

dunno if i'm talking to myself on this thread, but i'm hoping you guys find this info useful :)
Last edited by Ang3lus on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rogb
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by rogb »

Ang3lus wrote:sat down for a few more hours on the amp today,

changed bright switch to off/160p/270p

160p for strat/270p for humbuckers sounds best for me.

Tried all values from 22p-470p, I find those two to be the best.

Also, changed the OD trim ((I have it on the front panel)) to a 250k LOG pot, this seems to be the best middle ground for HBs and SCs.

I tried 500k/346k/100k/150k. 250k worked best

Also, I do not like the 450v B+, the bass is too muffled, raised the B+ to 472v, I like this a lot better.

found the problem with the FET, I accidently put a 20k trim pot, maybe that's why It's only slightly louder than the normal input ?

will change it tomorrow to 10k and test it.

Overall, I will keep the amp this way, classic TS with skyliner on a switch, High plate and 250k log trim pot are the biggest changes.

I'm using 5881s, but they hardly break up, so i'm gonna order some JJ 6L6s from antique and test it then.
Are you sure you want them to break up?
Ang3lus
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:53 am
Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

Headroom breakup :)

they still clean fairly well

I also put a huge capacitor order from AES to mainly find a Bass cap that isn't boomy and defined.

I will try

Mallory
MOD
Solen
Xicon
OD 715p,716p.
Philips mustard
Wima durolit PIO

then it's onto the PI for tweaking.

I keep saying i'm done, but I keep finding things I want to tweak

it ain't done till someone put this thing in a headbox :)
Ang3lus
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Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

after testing almost all caps I've reached the conclusion that for me, the entire OD line is not at all defined and really muddy in overdrive.

I've tested all caps with alligator clips in all positions and have reached the following conclusions.

(rated from best to worst, definition wise, definition = not muddy at all settings, treble is not harsh, but musical and bass is not boomy, but tight)

Coupling Caps:

1. Musatrds
2. Solen and MODs
3. Mallory
4. OD 6PS
5. OD 716p
6. OD 715p

Treble Cap:

1. Mustard (or mustard in series to produce picof values)
2. Ceramic (tested Murata)
4. Mallory
3. Silver mica (really harsh)

Mid cap:

1. Mustard
2. Solen
3. Mallory and 6PS
4. OD 715p
5. OD 716p

Bass cap:

1. Solen
2. 6Ps
3. 716p

PI caps: (not a big difference overall, mainly less ossicilations between these types of caps)

1. Solen
2. 6PS or 715P

the mustard caps i tested are all NOS, the solens are my new favorites after from what i've tested, i've done tons of back and forth testing (in the time frame of 6 hours).

what i've looked for is clarity and definition, the amp is a beast for recording now).

also, some more conclusions i've reached after testing:

1. the high plate setting REALLY compresses the amp compared to the classic tonestack.

2. the mepcos are nice resistors, but somewhat dull sounding for me, i've used 1watt vitrohm carbon comp resistors which turned out awesome in both high plate and low plate, sound is more "alive" if that makes sense.

3. 150k vs 100k or even 75k, the 150k is a kind of compromise I think, the 100k works best for dynamics, the 150k compresses everything somewhat, the difference is less than minimal between 100k and 150k, i'm leaving the tonestack slope at 100k (I like dynamics).

4. high plate vs low plate, as i've said before, I prefer dynamics, so i'm leaving it at low plate.

5. power amp section (PI and everything else) is REALLY important to the tone, i'd say it's 40% preamp and 60% poweramp, I changed all the 6PS caps to solen caps, sound is more alive by far than all the stock parts used.

6. All the caps i've used were marked by outer foil and placed accordingly, the caps i rated the best (mustards and Solen) stopped ossicilations almost entirely in all overdrive settings (I can set OD trimmer almost to max and i get no ossicilations).

I'm going to leave the circuit at low plate and do some more testing tomorrow by trying to test the circuit without a presence control and NFB only, see if that makes any difference.

I've also added two switches (One SPDT and one DPDT) to convert the tonestack to skyliner.

Clean side of things, Low plate is far more dynamic, sparkly than high plate and much less compressed, I like this because i'm really dynamic with my playing as i'm mainly treating the guitar as a musical instrument rather than a guitar producing solos and chords, so it's important for me to be able to hit the strings HARD and get the amp working HARD, which the high plate lacks compared to the low plate.

it's a bit funny, I actually went somewhat from a #102 high plate skyliner to a #124 low plate classic with 330pf snubbers on the Preamp tubes :)
John_P_WI
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Location: Wisconsin

Re: #102 Build started

Post by John_P_WI »

Ang3lus, thank you for your continued feedback on your build and journey. Curious, what type and series of Solen caps did you try? Metallized Polyester, Polypropylene, Teflon???

Thanks.
Ang3lus
Posts: 243
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Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

metallized polypropelene
Ang3lus
Posts: 243
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

here are soundclips of my amp

4xJJ 6L6GC biased @ 35ma @ 470v

https://soundcloud.com/user961120844/se ... mp-i-built

EVM 12L speaker Closed back with shure sm57
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David Root
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by David Root »

This is quite a journey you've been thru! You started with a 102 and have now got a 124-ish build but with 30V higher on the 6L6 plates. Thanx for all the useful tweaking info along the way.

I did notice on the soundclips that I actually preferred the Strat tone, especially the FET track. It's hard to tell from the recordings, there seems to be some background noise interfering with the amp's tone (how did you record this?), but it sounds like you have the OD entrance pot way up on all tracks. This probably helps the Strat, but is too much of a good thing with the humbuckers.

The 124 circuit is relatively Strat-friendly, especially when compared with the 102. I've built both, and they seem to appeal to different people. The guy that owns my 124 uses a thinline Tele and a Benedetto archtop. The guy that is about to buy my 102 uses a high end PRS. My 102 does not sound good in OD with a Strat, but is awesome with humbuckers. The 102 seems to need a Klon into the amp with a Strat. To be fair to the original I used a different PS that gives about 20V less than 102 on the 6L6 plates.

I'm particularly interested in your extensive use of NOS mustards in your amp rather than the stock 6PS. That and most of the soundclips would suggest to me that you lean toward the Marshally side of the spectrum, would that be an accurate statement? Is that what you like about the mustards, or is it something different? Other than their apparent oscillation killing properties, that is.

I used NOS 6PS in my 102, and a mix of Mepco/Electra MF and Piher CF resistors, ie pretty much what HAD used back in the day. It is not a Strat-friendly circuit. I know there are ways to make it more amenable to a Strat but if that was what I was looking for I would have built another 124, most likely, or a first or second generation circuit, both of which I've also built.
Ang3lus
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Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

I actually ended up using Solen fast polyprop on the tonestack and PI, Mustards i've used on v1A coupling and for the rest of the coupling caps i used MODs PIO.

Resistors are all NOS Carbon Comps, I took out the Mepcos i had in there.

the reason being is that I had a Muddy tone with some settings, and i hate that, with this setup i don't have anything muddy.

I've had the OD entrance pot on 25k to GND, I suspect I have a GND loop somewhere in the amp, but not sure on how to approach it and trace it, when i touch the guitar the small hum noise is gone, but when i don't touch it I get some hum.

I do have an isolator washer on the input jack, could that be the cause ?
Ang3lus
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHXnVUQR1Lk

Video of the amp, better mix than the other clips
Ang3lus
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Location: Israel

Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

David, Followed your ear (great btw) and looked for the ossicilation, coulden't find anything, so I thought since I do have hum i better redo all grounding on the amp and tidy up my wiring, so i did, according to the layout in the files section.

low and behold, the problem presented itself, ossicilation once i turn the Pre up 3/4 and treble pot to the same position.

I found out when i chopstick-move the Grid V2A wire and PI V3A wire It's reduced to null when moved away a bit.

I guess I will reroute those wires according to the layout too and rid of this problem without resorting to shielded wires, do you guys think that's a good idea ?
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Structo
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by Structo »

Amp sounds good but pretty far from a Dumble.

When you change the materials used in D amps, the tone will depart from the known standard.

Don't get me wrong, if you are happy with the amp, that is all that matters. :D
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
CHIP
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by CHIP »

I'm curious about your OD settings. From what I see in your video the drive is on about 3 o'clock and the level is about 8 o'clock. Mid is almost off. Am I correct?

Sounds real good, but sure is different from Dumbles I've heard.
Nothing wrong with that.
Ang3lus
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

I started off stock and seasoned to taste (mine), it sounds real different from anything I have ever built/tried and i kinda like it this way, though sometimes i miss that original flavor the amp had.

You are correct about the settings, the room i recorded in has a very weird acoustic response, so i changed it according to that room, the level was low because i had my neibougher bouncing on the door for me to "quiet down or play with headphones"

i don't know why he thought this amp can be played with headphones :)
Ang3lus
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Re: #102 Build started

Post by Ang3lus »

so, fixed the oscillation, it was not a major issue, it was just the plate wires came a bit loose from all my modding of the plate resistors, all fixed and no noise now.

HOWEVER, I did notice i was getting some distortion even when clean (that wasn't there before, i had a REALLY clean sound), plugged the guitar into the return input and i got a distorted sound, which is more of a clean sound with a distorted note on top of it. (is this what is called ghost notes ?)

I used 220uf for the the filters, ruby caps, i'm guessing they are not that good since it seems like the supply is underfiltered.

I ordered F&T 220uf and some JJ 330uf/385v (just in case 220uf is not enough filtering)

I used Aflynt's layout, but now upon scanning all the power amps of 124/183 etc i see filtering is between 300uf-330uf, so i'm hoping changing to 330uf in the worst of cases will clean up the signal and i can headbox this amp for good.
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