Lindley Tone-Homing In on #8

[David Root]

ER that was very revealing! Maybe we are getting somewhere. Do we know which amp Mr. Dave was using on that sample you analyzed?

We also know that HAD did spectrographic analysis earlier in his career, not sure when, maybe he figured this all out forty years ago?

Was #8 a unique circuit?

On the 7-pin amp, yes, the 6X4s are in parallel. If I pull one I would expect the remaining one to compress a lot as it will be running pretty hard. That's why I put a pair in in the first place, guess I was looking for something different at that time. Also used two 6AQ5s as well.

[David Root]

I thought they were the second and eighth ODS style built, not necessarily the second and eighth amps HAD built. I could be wrong on that.

Max would know.

[ER]

David-

Somewhere in there there's a modified bassman too.

Running on empty (song) was recorded live 8/27/77, Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, MD. The album is mostly live stuff from summer of '77 and released in december of '77.

The video is from Maryland in '77, so more than likely the same amp, though it's not shown in the video.

As far as analysis it's still pretty crude using stuff off the internet but showing some interesting results. Next I need to compare some of the clips posted here and some clips of other distorted guitar tones like some CC deville or Kiss or something that is deviod of the vocal quality we're seeking. My friend was explaining how distortion exites harmonics higher up in frequency and was comparing the sound of a sax and trumpet to illustrate how the graphs would look different as you move away from the fundamental. It's also interesting how the dumble recordings I looked at so far all have something happening in that 2-3kHz zone you were talking about.

-ER

[Max]

I thought they were the second and eighth ODS style built, not necessarily the second and eighth amps HAD built. I could be wrong on that.

Max would know.

These "first generation" ODS are indeed the first "production" ODS style amps. Here the ODS series # system starts. #1 (combo) is still with Alexander. Before these he made some prototypes with a three step switch for the ODS (Off, Explosion 1, Explosion 2) He called these proto's "Overdrive Deluxe". Brandon posted some pics.

All Dumble "models" have seperate series-#-systems. So there is a DL #3 and a SSS #3 and an ODS #3 and so on. As I told before he did not start his own product lines with the ODS style amps but with the forerunners of the Dumblelands.

This "singer's thread" is funny as I tell this since years.

Only some weeks ago I posted links to two youtube clips of the opera singer Renata Tebaldi , and I said: Listen, this is the Dumble sound, no kidding!

Renata is especially dumblelike (fourth generation for my ears, a bit like the Farris amp): thick warm and smooth, very defined and at need aggressive, with crystal clear but full highs and colorful rich overtones and stable lower registers. Really, listen to the way she sings the "Wally" I linked to, and you can learn some aspects of what makes an ODS an ODS. Just search for my posts around X-mas. I am in a great hurry right now and can't do it myself. Sorry for this.

Have fun

Max

[David Root]

Double Post--Sorry.

[David Root]

ER said "My friend was explaining how distortion exites harmonics higher up in frequency and was comparing the sound of a sax and trumpet to illustrate how the graphs would look different as you move away from the fundamental. It's also interesting how the dumble recordings I looked at so far all have something happening in that 2-3kHz zone you were talking about."

Thank you ER and Max. We seem to be getting warmer all the time especially with the 2K5 to 3K or so range.

However, as someone mentioned earlier, many speakers have emphasis in the 2-3KHz range. Have to be objective here. We have identified an effect I think, but have not as yet conclusively nailed its cause.

Perhaps some speakers (EV12, 12-65) have a 2-3K emphasis "skyline", as it were, that reinforces what we are hypothesizing Dumble was up to, and some don't. I realize I'm out on a limb here but.......??

[59Pro]

Now I'm confused. I thought #2 was the orange snakeskin (orange light)and #8 the silver snakeskin (Blue Light).
So Lindley used #2 orange light on Running on Empty, OR the orange/brown suede one that Ben Harper bought, but #8 is the one with the vocal quality that Lindley liked so much. Is that correct?
And both are 50W heads, right?

I pulled the Fretboard Journal issue with the interview, issue #11/ Fall 2008.

Ben Harper: There are so many rumors as to what you're playing on that "Running on Empty" solo.
David Lindley: The slide guitar was a Rickenbacker-a Bakelite Rickenbacker- and the amp was the Overdrive Special #2, the orange-light one. I have two of them: One is the blue-light Dumble, and then one is the orange-lihgt Dumble - a slightly different sound. Both Overdrive Specials. They are 50-watt with a 2x12 cabinet, which turns it into a monster. I never had it any higher than three. It's a huge, giant sound, and it had this low end....

BH: Does that mean it's the 2nd one ever made?
DL: Yeah, it's the second Overdrive Special.
BH: Who's got #1?
DL: I think Dumble has it.

BTW, the whole interview is quiet interesting, David talk's a lot about Dumble amps and how he met Alexander.

[ER]

Thanks 59 pro, I need to get ahold of that issue.

The lack of stuff above 4500hz on the lindley stuff could be from the early ODS's having a steel chassis. Here's an SK quote from the gear page;

"How would you characterize the difference in sound between steel & aluminum chassis?

The aluminum is more open sounding, clearer, more natural high end, and somewhat transformer dependent, capable of a more musical treble extension kind of thing.
They ping, or if you're into the folksy vocal harmony lingo, they 'keen'.

The steel chassis hits a ceiling at some point in the high end, and gets kinda grungy or packs up, but whatever it does, it doesn't have the transparency that the aluminum has.
The cool thing about that for electric guitar is, whatever those frequencies are that the steel chassis stuff focuses on gives the guitar a nice bite, an apparent loudness that the aluminum just passes right by."

Sounds about right. Anyone have a frequency response graph for the old Altec's that HAD used before switching to EVM?

50 watts, steel chassis, altec 2x12 cab, short scale rickenbacker with a horseshoe pick-up?[img:388:764]http://www.davidlindley.com/images/photos/inst/g8.gif[/img]
#2 Welcome to the orange light district...from Mr. Dave's homepage

[chris_sanford]

.....I'm not a builder but have been lurking here forever; and that "vocal" thing really hits home with me. I view (hear) it as a "vowel" sound--notes have an "oooh" or an "aah" sound to them. Not all of them--just when you least expect it. Sometimes it get out of a recent Bassman RI. Sometimes I don't. You guys that build seem to have that thing going on to varying degrees in your amps. What causes this and who can mod my Bassman into
"vowelly" D?

Happy New Year!

I believe that some of the Mr. Dave's vowel sound tone is due to the DA Purple Peaker that he used, and is not necessarily something that the ODS does on it's own. Experts, please correct me, if I'm mistaken though.

chris

[Structo]

In that interview David mentions that #2 is the orange one and the other one as a Blue one.

So where does the snakeskin tolex enter the picture?

[Runaway J]

In that interview David mentions that #2 is the orange one and the other one as a Blue one.

So where does the snakeskin tolex enter the picture?

Thought he's talking 'bout the pilot light color

[Structo]

OK gottcha, I didn't understand what the light thing was referring to.
For some reason I was thinking he meant a light version of the ODS like a D'lite....

So are they both snakeskin?

[Runaway J]

Havn't seen a picture of the blue light one but yes,
as far as I know both are in snakeskin tolex.

[heisthl]

The aluminum is more open sounding, clearer, more natural high end, and somewhat transformer dependent, capable of a more musical treble extension kind of thing.
They ping, or if you're into the folksy vocal harmony lingo, they 'keen'.

The steel chassis hits a ceiling at some point in the high end, and gets kinda grungy or packs up, but whatever it does, it doesn't have the transparency that the aluminum has.

Somebody needs a shovel

[Zippy]

Somebody needs a shovel

"I'm going get a brick, baby, and hit you right upside the head..."

Now, there's a blues tune you just cannot take issue with.

Wait a moment, maybe we can tune the alloy composition to dial in the frequency response. All the attention to caps and stuff has been chasing the wrong dog.