Dumble note flipping caught on sound file!

[Mr Dumble]

Very interesting discussion.

I agree!! What makes the Dumble do these things really interests me. Never mind copying a circuit, some of you guys should figure out WHY these cool things happen in a Dumble, and run with it farther. I think the flipping and straining go hand in hand, although the strain can haoppen without the flip. The strain is when the held note starts to decay, but them slowly comes back stronger. Leon C first stated it 10 years ago when he played an E.Pro. He described it by saying the amp was to smooth for him, but it had the most unique and wierdest feeling that the amp held onto a note and then fed it back into itself before letting it go. Lol! Where were you guys when i neded you at TGP? I actually was banned about this one time. I stated basically the same things I am saying here, and the piling on began. I was a "nut job", had "phasing on my brain" I heard it from to much "straining in the bathroom" etc etc. Of course as soon as I fired back...BANG!! I was banned for 3 months. LOL!!

[dave g]

The strain is when the held note starts to decay, but them slowly comes back stronger.

I hear this one too, although I've never called it "strain". However, I think it's linked to the same mechanisms behind the "flip" i.e., the operating point of each preamp stage actually changing in response to the input signal amplitude.

The really interesting thing is that some of my guitars do this on their own, even unplugged...although I think in this case there's some sort of low frequency modulation going on.

[CHIP]

If it is preamp sag (which I don't doubt), then the effect should be prevalent in 50 watters also. Correct?

[10thTx]

This is the soundclip you posted:

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 48756&q=hi

Do you hear something similar on this clip at around 18 & 28-29? Sort of a warble tone where a note flips/changes and then comes back?

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

With respect, 10thtx

[TheHandsomeOrk]

10thtx that sounds like it to my ears. I believe that's referred to as 'bloom.' TAG calls it 'note flipping", both are good descriptions but 'note flipping' is easier to understand in a descriptive sense. Structo mentioned the note turning into a high octave harmonic which makes sense, I hear it as losing some of the lower frequency spectrum and leaving the higher ones which is the same thing I guess. Perhaps TAG's amp (183) was more prone to this due to the different components= 25pF instead of 270pF snubbers , larger pots in OD ect. What role does the higher plate resistors contribute compared to lower plates in note flipping? It makes sense to me about the dropping string resistors playing a role in the bloom as well as the feedback, strain, sustain of the preamp section. It sounds like 183 was a real Diamond after all.

[greiswig]

The really interesting thing is that some of my guitars do this on their own, even unplugged...although I think in this case there's some sort of low frequency modulation going on.

That's what I was thinking when I listened to it...that I've heard that out of my Lowden acoustic before, but it goes away again. Makes me wonder how much of it might have to do with the axis of the string vibration rotating around the length of the string over time, and as it does so it finds the sweet spot for feedback from the pickup/amp?

[wjdunham]

Isn't this what a lot of folks here would call "bloom" - sounds like the note transitions from the fundamental to second harmonic. I've played with a lot of different things trying to emphasize that characteristic, and I still haven't built an amp that can do it at will like I hear in some of these clips, at low volumes nowhere close. That middle dropping string resistor and couplers (especially V2B) seem to be the biggest influences, but not the whole story. I can see why Dumble took years to build an amp, trial and error finding the right combination of components/values to get an amp to do that. Evidently even he didn't get it right on every amp, or wasn't targeting that sound for every amp anyway.

I was actually pretty surprised that Shad's clone came out so close, even with the NOS components there are a lot of variables that are hard to duplicate, exact wire lengths, tubes, transformers are all different. That's an ccomplishment for sure. I'm not sure I ever saw what transformers were used in the 183 clone (were they new or NOS, same manufacturer as the original)?


Bill

[Mr Dumble]

If it is preamp sag (which I don't doubt), then the effect should be prevalent in 50 watters also. Correct?

Its is. The example I played was with a 50 watt TwoRock Artist. The emmy pro is 50 watts and does it to the MAX.

[Mr Dumble]

This is the soundclip you posted:

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 48756&q=hi

Do you hear something similar on this clip at around 18 & 28-29? Sort of a warble tone where a note flips/changes and then comes back?

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

With respect, 10thtx

No, I did not hear the specific thing I was talking about in that clip at all.

[vibratoking]

I know that my Fuchs ODS50 will bloom as well, but only in rock mode. It doesn't do it at all in jazz mode. Has anyone else experienced that?

I'm not sure what that says about the sag theory. I would have to get out the scope and investigate the differences to really understand.

[Mr Dumble]

Isn't this what a lot of folks here would call "bloom" - sounds like the note transitions from the fundamental to second harmonic. I've played with a lot of different things trying to emphasize that characteristic, and I still haven't built an amp that can do it at will like I hear in some of these clips, at low volumes nowhere close. That middle dropping string resistor and couplers (especially V2B) seem to be the biggest influences, but not the whole story. I can see why Dumble took years to build an amp, trial and error finding the right combination of components/values to get an amp to do that. Evidently even he didn't get it right on every amp, or wasn't targeting that sound for every amp anyway.

I was actually pretty surprised that Shad's clone came out so close, even with the NOS components there are a lot of variables that are hard to duplicate, exact wire lengths, tubes, transformers are all different. That's an ccomplishment for sure. I'm not sure I ever saw what transformers were used in the 183 clone (were they new or NOS, same manufacturer as the original)?


Bill

This is a great conversation, and not to start flames, but this is exactly why I do not like a few of the major builders "clones". Sure they have the overal tonal characteristics, but that should not be hard. Its these special nuances that are truly magical. Most (Not all) twoRocks do it in spades, which is why I always like them. Bill told me he can get it several different ways, depending on the circuit he is working with. Shads amp has it nailed, and the first Quinn I had did it real well, which is one of the reasons I really wanted him to build the clone. Sounds like you guys are on the right trail, and boy would it be cool if someone could build an amp that did it even MORE so. Having that effect at your fingertips is about the coolest thing I have heard from any amp, and actually makes you choose different notes, as well as slow your playing down and let more notes ring. For most of us over players, thats a GREAT thing! I always thought Carlton and Ford were such great fits for Dumbles because they were tasteful note selectors in the first place, and let lots of notes ring. Also, Ford has the cool habit of cutting off the note mid flip many times, and it leaves you wanting more. Great stuff!

[BobW]

FWIW, here's my thoughts, based on my background in classical control systems:

The feedback network, along w/ other factors mentioned by others on this thread can also affect the bloom into 2nd order harmonics. In classical control systems theory, w/o a feedback of signal into a systems in general, a system can go from being a stable system to an unstable system. When this happens, phase shifting occurs. I believe HAD built his amps just on the verge of the control systems term called marginally stable. So when the amp is pushed, it becomes temporarily unstable, creates harmonics and the overall gain factor is greater than 1.

[vibratoking]

This is a great conversation...,

+1

...and not to start flames, but this is exactly why I do not like a few of the major builders "clones.

I have been using the Fuchs for several years now. It is a very good amp. As I hear more clips I am feeling that something is lacking. Sorry Andy. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. This is part of the reason that I am compelled to move on and build my own.

Having that effect at your fingertips is about the coolest thing I have heard from any amp, and actually makes you choose different notes, as well as slow your playing down and let more notes ring. For most of us over players, thats a GREAT thing!

I don't agree that all of those things are great. I am not sure I want an amp that makes me choose different notes. My best music comes from within me and not from any external place or thing. That being said, I like the bloom for certain types of music. It does enhance the sound at some level. It is a very cool aural experience.

I always thought Carlton and Ford were such great fits for Dumbles because they were tasteful note selectors in the first place, and let lots of notes ring. Also, Ford has the cool habit of cutting off the note mid flip many times, and it leaves you wanting more. Great stuff!

Those guys sound equally as good without the Dumble IMO. To be honest, if they never plugged into a Dumble again, I would not feel that I was missing anything. Those guys are making music from the heart and using the Dumble to enhance it. The Dumble is not the tail that is wagging the dog.

[Structo]

Yep, I believe that note bloom is the correct name for that.
Where the note blooms into fundamental harmonic.

Remember that Shad said the Ford clone did this in spades.

From my notes:

Also the only "problem" I can see is that the damn thing wants to take every single note, ball it up and make it eat its own harmonic ass on the way to the moon.
They just take off.... learning to get a note to ring out without it taking off is way trickier then the other way around!
That takes some getting used to...

[ericlee]

Actually it is combination of both – bloom and feedback even on very low volume levels.
My amp does it almost on every note after my mods.
Here is audio
http://www.drika.biz/bloom.mp3
And here is video, ignore the beginning and listen from 1,14.
Hope you’ve noticed that master is almost off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCJh1QvcMc