Tim Pierce and ODS #178

[dbharris]

Tony, great to see you posting again!

It looks like this amp only has 3 noval tubes. Is this the musicman power supply without the driver tube? Or maybe a 4th tube is located more towards the front of the chassis.

Also curious HAD was calling the bluesmaster preamp "Ultra-Phonix". I thought Ultra-Phonix was more of a process to mod existing amps with various circuit block options, not a specific circuit.

-Dan

[talbany]

Settings listed here are for s/n 0192 and s/n 0182

Tubes are most likely Sovtek 5881's/ WXT Big bottles. 700v capable


https://mustard-seadragon-besg.squaresp ... l-100-watt head-sn-0178-larry-carlton-carlos-santana

Tony

[talbany]

Tony, great to see you posting again!

It looks like this amp only has 3 noval tubes. Is this the musicman power supply without the driver tube? Or maybe a 4th tube is located more towards the front of the chassis.

Also curious HAD was calling the bluesmaster preamp "Ultra-Phonix". I thought Ultra-Phonix was more of a process to mod existing amps with various circuit block options, not a specific circuit.

-Dan

Hello Dan
Yes without the driver tube?
as far as Ultraphonics mod goes it could be a one off custom voiced for a specific customers needs..Dunno
BTW. Did Dumble refer to his MM power supply/ OPS as "Surge" Humm??

Tony

[Guy77]

Hi Tony and Charlie. Nice to hear you guys again and thanks for all your old posts that are helping this amp come together!
This really is a beautiful sounding amp with nice sustain and beautiful grind when you dig in.
Who needs reverb when your dry signal sounds like this!

So based on what has been said, this appears to be a Bluesmaster tone stack with a 47k slope and 250k, 50k 500k tone knobs, and a JCM800 overdrive (2nd preamp tube) and a Bluesmaster PI .
And Sovtek power tubes https://www.thetubestore.com/sovtek-5881wxt
I know these 5881WXT have a different flavor than the JJs when driven hard so this would be an important component.

Cheers
G

[talbany]

Hello Guy
Good to be back with you guys here.
Sounds more Marshall/Bluesmaster esque to me (Scooped mids) givin the amps settings.

Maybe CW can opine?

Tony

[Guy77]

Hello Guy
Good to be back with you guys here.
I don't know about it being a Skyliner stack? Sounds more Marshall/Bluesmaster esque to me (Scooped mids) givin the amps settings.

Maybe CW can opine?

Tony

I think you are correct Tony, I edited my post before I saw your post, I was reading your mind lol.
I changed my OP to just what you said "Bluesmaster esque "

G,

[dbharris]

Tony, great to see you posting again!

It looks like this amp only has 3 noval tubes. Is this the musicman power supply without the driver tube? Or maybe a 4th tube is located more towards the front of the chassis.

Also curious HAD was calling the bluesmaster preamp "Ultra-Phonix". I thought Ultra-Phonix was more of a process to mod existing amps with various circuit block options, not a specific circuit.

-Dan

Hello Dan
Yes without the driver tube?
as far as Ultraphonics mod goes it could be a one off custom voiced for a specific customers needs..Dunno
BTW. Did Dumble refer to his MM power supply/ OPS as "Surge" Humm??

Tony

Good point, I was assuming the info was HAD's terminology, but maybe not the case.

-Dan

[Charlie Wilson]

Hello Guy
Good to be back with you guys here.
Sounds more Marshall/Bluesmaster esque to me (Scooped mids) givin the amps settings.

Maybe CW can opine?

Tony

I have learned a few things recently so yes; I can respond to this. First of all, we need to differentiate between "power amp" and "power supply" as Dumble refers to them. The "power amp" is the output tubes, PI, and output transformer. The "power supply" is the power transformer, rectifier, and filtering. Yes, Dumble gave names to the power amp, and I know of two although there may be more. The "surge" power amp is the Marshall style output section as used in the Bluesmaster and Ripper. The "precision" power amp is the output section we are more familiar with like #124, #102, and so on. I believe that years ago there was a confusion between a precision power amp and precision power supply. I do not think Dumble ever called the radial cap etched board, a precision power supply. I also do not think that Dumble would have to referred to a complete amp with names like Bluesmaster or Ripper. Those are names he gave to what he calls the overdrive processor section of an amp. So, for example, #189 would be a skyline preamp with a ripper overdrive processor and a surge power amp. I believe in this #178 amplifier the preamp is the Marshall style preamp that apparently Dumble called the "Ultraphonix".
CW

[DSull89]

This is some really great info, Charlie. Thank you! So is it possible to your ears that this amp could potentially be an Ultraphonix/Ripper? Just a shot in the dark on my part given Carlton is known to have had the Ripper in some of his amps.

-Dan

[Charlie Wilson]

Yeah I think that it is more or less that Ripper schematic that was posted earlier in this thread with a high voltage Musicman power supply. Now keep in mind, to Dumble, Larry Carlton and Robben Ford were THE guys, so there may be some tweeky stuff in there.
CW

[Bombacaototal]

Hello Guy
Good to be back with you guys here.
Sounds more Marshall/Bluesmaster esque to me (Scooped mids) givin the amps settings.

Maybe CW can opine?

Tony

I have learned a few things recently so yes; I can respond to this. First of all, we need to differentiate between "power amp" and "power supply" as Dumble refers to them. The "power amp" is the output tubes, PI, and output transformer. The "power supply" is the power transformer, rectifier, and filtering. Yes, Dumble gave names to the power amp, and I know of two although there may be more. The "surge" power amp is the Marshall style output section as used in the Bluesmaster and Ripper. The "precision" power amp is the output section we are more familiar with like #124, #102, and so on. I believe that years ago there was a confusion between a precision power amp and precision power supply. I do not think Dumble ever called the radial cap etched board, a precision power supply. I also do not think that Dumble would have to referred to a complete amp with names like Bluesmaster or Ripper. Those are names he gave to what he calls the overdrive processor section of an amp. So, for example, #189 would be a skyline preamp with a ripper overdrive processor and a surge power amp. I believe in this #178 amplifier the preamp is the Marshall style preamp that apparently Dumble called the "Ultraphonix".
CW

That is very insightful Charlie, thanks for sharing!

I believe he called what we know of as the Blues master PI as tone blossom PI. Do you think this is part of the surge power amp, or is it something else

[martin manning]

I have learned a few things recently...

Interesting. You must have been enlightened by someone who knew HAD well, a real insider.

[dbharris]

I've been giving Charlie's comments a bit of thought, and thanks so much for sharing that info. By understanding HAD's naming conventions versus what we call things here, maybe we can better understand his approach to various amps, guitar styles, timbres, etc. I've seen it said here many times that each amp is a system and you cannot take a bunch of various circuit blocks and link them up while expecting a proper sound. But it seems to me HAD may have thought of these as discrete circuit blocks with various acceptable combinations to achieve certain specific goals.

If I am understanding things correct, then:

1. If the V2 section of an ODS has a gain stage, another gain stage, and then a plate driven marshall type tonestack stage...it is called here an HRM, but HAD would have called it a Bluesmaster overdrive processor?

2. If V2 instead were a gain stage, cathode follower stage, then marshall type tonestack, that would be a Ripper overdrive processor?

3. What we call a Bluesmaster amp in the files section is really an ODS that has an Ultra-Phonix preamp, Bluesmaster overdrive processor, Surge power amp, with some unknown name for what we call a traditional power supply? Or did he not name his power supplies?

4. What we call a high plate skyline HRM, HAD may have thought of as an ODS with a Skyline preamp, Bluesmaster overdrive processor, and precision power amp?

Does that sound like a reasonable interpretation?

-Dan

[Guy77]

I've been giving Charlie's comments a bit of thought, and thanks so much for sharing that info. By understanding HAD's naming conventions versus what we call things here, maybe we can better understand his approach to various amps, guitar styles, timbres, etc. I've seen it said here many times that each amp is a system and you cannot take a bunch of various circuit blocks and link them up while expecting a proper sound. But it seems to me HAD may have thought of these as discrete circuit blocks with various acceptable combinations to achieve certain specific goals.

If I am understanding things correct, then:

1. If the V2 section of an ODS has a gain stage, plate driven marshall type tonestack, and then recovery stage...it is called here an HRM, but HAD would have called it a Bluesmaster overdrive processor?

2. If V2 instead were a gain stage, cathode follower stage, then marshall type tonestack, that would be a Ripper overdrive processor?

3. What we call a Bluesmaster amp in the files section is really an ODS that has an Ultra-Phonix preamp, Bluesmaster overdrive processor, Surge power amp, with some unknown name for what we call a traditional power supply? Or did he not name his power supplies?

4. What we call a high plate skyline HRM, HAD may have thought of as an ODS with a Skyline preamp, Bluesmaster overdrive processor, and precision power amp?

Does that sound like a reasonable interpretation?

-Dan

Hi Dan, that's a good point you made about understanding how Dumble interrupts his amps compared to how we think of them here. Your observations seem accurate as well.

Something interesting that someone pointed out to me is that Tim is always playing through the FET input and not the regular input.
Maybe he liked the sound better this way? It would be interesting to know how Larry and Santana plugged into this amp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmT6Nn5kMbw

Cheers
Guy

[DSull89]

Looks like Carlton uses the normal input. Carlos, too.