#124 Questions

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markusw
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by markusw »

rootz wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:31 pm Help me out here, why not a cap in series right after the coil? Will that mess up the loading of the pan and thus the frequency response?
It won't mess up loading of the pan or frequency response.

I just had the impression that Bombacaototal needed to remove the board to insert the cap right after the coil, probably because the 220k to gnd is wired at the RCA jack that is underneath the board.
Therefore I suggested to insert the cap in series and another 220k at the tube sockets grid pin. The additional 220k wired at the RCA jacket shouldn't have any noticeable impact on the frequency response or loading.

BTW, Bombacaototal if you insert the cap at the tube socket you of course could also go for the values I initially suggested (i.e. 270-470p and 1M) but it won't matter, 1n-2n2 and 220k will have the same effect.
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

markusw wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:15 pm
Bombacaototal wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:01 pm
Thanks for clarifying Markus. It is interesting, but compared to only having the 220K to ground, having the 220k and 2200pF in parallel to ground made my reverb brighter and removed that “cave” low end echoness

Now the challenge of doing as suggested is that the rca jacks are really in the middle of the board, underneath. I think to attempt that I will need to remove the board and probably unsolder a bunch of stuff as leads are somewhat short. Not easy...sigh
IIRC the 2n2 to gnd is supposed to make the frequency response of the reverb out flatter. i.e. it to some extent adds highs.
Don't recall why.

Currently you have a wire going from the RCA (pan out) jack to the grid of the recovery stage. Correct?
You just need to unsolder this wire at the grid and add the 1n or 2n2 cap in series.

Edit: Is the yellow wire connecting the RCA jack to the tube socket grid pin?
In case the 220k is directly soldered to the RCA jack you could just unsolder the yellow wire at the grid pin, insert the cap in series with the grid and add another 220k directly to gnd from the grid pin at the socket.

Edit 2:
Here is a link to some frequency response measurements glasman did with caps of different value added across the output coil.
However, In this case the cap is added directly from pan output to gnd, not via a 220k.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... nse#p64465
Thanks Markus, very helpful. Yes the 220K is soldered directly to the RCA jack, and the yellow wire is going to the tube grid. I will try the 1M / 470pF as I think it will keep the gain structure better.

By the way, we now know that the 220k/2200pF in parallel to ground will tighten the reverb. What is the 100KB pot / .01uF across to ground doing? The pot is a voltage divider, therefore the cap will be in parallel with the first side of the voltage divider and make a high pass filter with the ground side of the divider?

Using a 220K/500pF in parallel, in series with the signal will tighten the bottom end. I always thought this was a high pass filter too, but there is no ground element here. Could we get rid of the 50HZ frequency with this approach too (just out of curiosity).
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

I just tried with alligator clips but it gives me a lot of hum (unrelated to the pan as it was placed in a safe distance on the side). Basically the rca return jack has the 220k soldered to it to ground and the output of the rca has the yellow lead. I placed a 470pf capacitador in series with the yellow lead, on the other side of the capacitor I have the 1M to ground and where the 470pf and 1M meet (not the ground side), I added to the grid.

If I use the alligator clips to connect the yellow wire to the grid, it is back to normal.

I guess I will just live with the hum as it is not perfect but good enough
markusw
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by markusw »

Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:51 am
Thanks Markus, very helpful. Yes the 220K is soldered directly to the RCA jack, and the yellow wire is going to the tube grid. I will try the 1M / 470pF as I think it will keep the gain structure better.

By the way, we now know that the 220k/2200pF in parallel to ground will tighten the reverb. What is the 100KB pot / .01uF across to ground doing? The pot is a voltage divider, therefore the cap will be in parallel with the first side of the voltage divider and make a high pass filter with the ground side of the divider?

Using a 220K/500pF in parallel, in series with the signal will tighten the bottom end. I always thought this was a high pass filter too, but there is no ground element here. Could we get rid of the 50HZ frequency with this approach too (just out of curiosity).
I do not know the schematics but if the .01uF is wired from pot "top" to gnd then it forms a low pass filter together with the output impedance of the previous (triode) stage.
If the 0.01uF is wired from pot "top" to wiper then it forms a high pass filter, like a bright cap.

A 220K/500pF in parallel in series with the signal is a high pass filter too that will cut some bass. The efficiency of this filter will depend on the input impedance of the following stage though. Don't ask me why ;-) LTspice "says" that the higher the input impedance of the following stage the less efficient the parallel RC filter will cut bass.
e.g. if the 220k/500pF filter is followed by 2000k input impedance it will cut only about 1 dB bass, if it is followed by 200k it cuts about 6dB bass.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than me could explain this :-)

Anyway, I'd go for the "470p series"/"1M to gnd" approach.
markusw
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by markusw »

Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:08 am I just tried with alligator clips but it gives me a lot of hum (unrelated to the pan as it was placed in a safe distance on the side). Basically the rca return jack has the 220k soldered to it to ground and the output of the rca has the yellow lead. I placed a 470pf capacitador in series with the yellow lead, on the other side of the capacitor I have the 1M to ground and where the 470pf and 1M meet (not the ground side), I added to the grid.

If I use the alligator clips to connect the yellow wire to the grid, it is back to normal.

I guess I will just live with the hum as it is not perfect but good enough
That's weird. The 470p/1M combo definitely should not add additional hum. Might be in total there were too many alligator clips?
Guess it would be better to solder the parts in place.
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

markusw wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:39 am
Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:08 am I just tried with alligator clips but it gives me a lot of hum (unrelated to the pan as it was placed in a safe distance on the side). Basically the rca return jack has the 220k soldered to it to ground and the output of the rca has the yellow lead. I placed a 470pf capacitador in series with the yellow lead, on the other side of the capacitor I have the 1M to ground and where the 470pf and 1M meet (not the ground side), I added to the grid.

If I use the alligator clips to connect the yellow wire to the grid, it is back to normal.

I guess I will just live with the hum as it is not perfect but good enough
That's weird. The 470p/1M combo definitely should not add additional hum. Might be in total there were too many alligator clips?
Guess it would be better to solder the parts in place.
I was wondering the same, if it was too many alligator clips. But to be honest I just plugged the amp with a couple of others next to each other, and with send and return at 2 o’clock (which is where I set
It) I can barely the hum, and the noise floor of the amp is fairly good. I think I will just leave as is....maybe being too “perfect” sometimes is daunting..

But I appreciate all the help Markus, really learned a lot on this quest..
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

markusw wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:32 am
Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:51 am
Thanks Markus, very helpful. Yes the 220K is soldered directly to the RCA jack, and the yellow wire is going to the tube grid. I will try the 1M / 470pF as I think it will keep the gain structure better.

By the way, we now know that the 220k/2200pF in parallel to ground will tighten the reverb. What is the 100KB pot / .01uF across to ground doing? The pot is a voltage divider, therefore the cap will be in parallel with the first side of the voltage divider and make a high pass filter with the ground side of the divider?

Using a 220K/500pF in parallel, in series with the signal will tighten the bottom end. I always thought this was a high pass filter too, but there is no ground element here. Could we get rid of the 50HZ frequency with this approach too (just out of curiosity).
I do not know the schematics but if the .01uF is wired from pot "top" to gnd then it forms a low pass filter together with the output impedance of the previous (triode) stage.
If the 0.01uF is wired from pot "top" to wiper then it forms a high pass filter, like a bright cap.

A 220K/500pF in parallel in series with the signal is a high pass filter too that will cut some bass. The efficiency of this filter will depend on the input impedance of the following stage though. Don't ask me why ;-) LTspice "says" that the higher the input impedance of the following stage the less efficient the parallel RC filter will cut bass.
e.g. if the 220k/500pF filter is followed by 2000k input impedance it will cut only about 1 dB bass, if it is followed by 200k it cuts about 6dB bass.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than me could explain this :-)

Anyway, I'd go for the "470p series"/"1M to gnd" approach.
The .01uF was wired like the Wonderland from right lug to the ground lug, a low lass filter then.

Noted with thanks regarding the 220K/500pF.
markusw
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by markusw »

Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:00 am I was wondering the same, if it was too many alligator clips. But to be honest I just plugged the amp with a couple of others next to each other, and with send and return at 2 o’clock (which is where I set
It) I can barely the hum, and the noise floor of the amp is fairly good.
Sounds good! :-)
Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:00 am I think I will just leave as is....maybe being too “perfect” sometimes is daunting..
Definitely! :wink:
Bombacaototal wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:00 am But I appreciate all the help Markus, really learned a lot on this quest..

You're welcome!
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

markusw wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:42 pm
Bombacaototal wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:28 am

Another issue I am facing is regarding the pilot light. I always found that 6.3V doesn't glow very well, so I wired mine as 240V, but the glue of the jewel is melting with the heat, making it fall off..I had a couple that fell already...any work around this or my only solution will be 6.3v? I think the Fender style bulb (they call it T47 or #44, not sure) has T-3 1/4 (10 mm) bulb size and BA9s base. I will try to find a LED replacement.

For reference this is my narrowed down search.
https://uk.farnell.com/c/lighting-produ ... -1-4-10mm-

This seems to be one of the few that can opperate at suppy voltage of 230V/240V
https://uk.farnell.com/cml-innovative-t ... dp/1105183

This is the spec sheet
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1756532.pdf

I think the measurements will work on the Fender style pilot
At a first glance I don't see a reason why these LED bulbs shouldn't work.

Markus
The LED worked perfectly
markusw
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by markusw »

Bombacaototal wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:41 pm

The LED worked perfectly
Good to know! :-)
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

Back to fixing another amp...I am trying to determine what kind of noise this is, it is not low frequency so I don’t think it is a ground loop, but to my ears it sounds noisier than just gain. Maybe cross talk?

I have the tonestack and reverb disconnected and this is just the filters into the PI. And what you hear is me going to max and back at the Master.

EDIT: replaced the AX7s and same result. Also did the chopstick to move wires and check components and no difference. I am starting to think this might be a ground loop indeed...
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Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

I’ve always shied away from posting my finished amps because most folks here do such a tidy organised job that I never felt up to par.

But I wanted to share my finished 004. As an amp building approach I usually like to take inspiration from a bunch of designs (dumble, fender, etc) and amalgamate them together into an original design.

This in turn was my first attempt of doing a clone. My approach on this was to try to get as close to the original as far as parts selection, and I used 60’s Fender pots, 60’s piher resistors, NOS orange drops, mepco cathode resistors and the NOS large supply caps (blue sprague). The only “author’s” license was the cathode capacitors because I really love the yellow spragues vs the taiwanese used on the original. I had less room to wiggle as far as tweaks because I want to keep it close to the original, so I spent more time on the cabinet/speaker and NOS tubes department. I settled on a couple of RCA, Phillips, Mazda and Mullard I61 on the final tube roll and a large pine open back 1x12 with a vintage EVM 12S. Overall it was a good exercise to actually get to know the amp as is and spend time setting the knobs configuration to my taste. I don’t think it is a “voicing/topology” I would have chosen as I like the more gainy SSS amps, but it is a very nice amp in its own right and the more time I spend with it the more I like it.

This was my first time using eyelet boards, and probably the last. Although the final product looks much nicer, I find turrets a “tweakers” paradise compared to the eyelets which were cold sweat everytime I had to change something, specially because of the large leads from the vintage parts.

As far as the build itself I am using AN chassis and boards (which needed some modifications) and the FET board is from Erwin. The transformers are classic tone and I am using the 320-0-320 tap on PT. The back and faceplates were custom. It was a straightforward easy build, and took me far less time then the other experimental amps. The grounding scheme is as per Wonderland. The main challenge was to fit everything in the allocated space. In retrospect my only regret is the large footswitch socket (chosen mainly for aesthetics) which made my life a bit more miserable as far as space allocation of the LNFB on V1. I would have used a smaller one if I were to do it again.

My stumbling block was the PT interference with the reverb which has been discussed in this thread and I think it is good enough now.

The reverse speaker wiring was a must in this amp. I think it has to do with the mixer dry/wet tube.
Further discussions here: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32935

As far as bias this amp likes it very cold, close to 50% and in line with the Two Rock manuals (which now make more sense to me)

Originally I wanted to add relays for FET and PAB but unless I gooped the preamp and added them on top (like two rock) there was no room. But I am haply as is.
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Last edited by Bombacaototal on Thu May 06, 2021 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Colossal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Colossal »

Raphael,

That's a great looking amp! Wow! There is a lot going on in there. I love all the old parts. That piece alone, acquiring all that NOS...it's exhausting to think about :shock: You even tracked down that inductor too. I can tell that a tremendous amount of time went into that build. Very nice.
Bombacaototal
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by Bombacaototal »

Colossal wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:49 pm Raphael,

That's a great looking amp! Wow! There is a lot going on in there. I love all the old parts. That piece alone, acquiring all that NOS...it's exhausting to think about :shock: You even tracked down that inductor too. I can tell that a tremendous amount of time went into that build. Very nice.
Thank you very much for the compliments Colossal. Yes, a lot of time and dedication put into this amp! The outlier of this circuit are all those LNFBs. It really cramps up the space quickly, specially with the older larger components. Even I was amazed it didn’t look that bad after adding everything in.
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: #124 Questions

Post by pompeiisneaks »

Very cool! Man those resistors are HUGE :)

Would love to hear some sounds from it!

~Phil
tUber Nerd!
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