Big rehash - Strat into Dumble - what really works

[Max]

This clip here with him playing with Miles doesn't to me sound anything like a Low Plate classic (too compressed)..Sounds like a pedal!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGP6y5Anm4

Tony, however this clip may sound to your ears – AFAIK RF used #0102 for all the concerts he played with Miles on this tour and it's visible on stage in every video of this tour I know of. And I have strong doubts that he ever used a distortion pedal in front of #0102. But of course I can't prove that your "pedal-speculation" is wrong – but a speculation it is.

Here's another clip of the same solo part - but IMO with a better audio quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQsayvE6_Pc (Solo starting around 3:00)

More clips of this tour are available in the internet and on CD and DVD. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc_Gjndpk_0 (one of the guitar solos starting around 12:40 e.g.)

So everyone here will be able to decide if he personally perceives a pedal in front of #0102 while RF used it for this tour in combination with his maple-neck Strat.

Here's a clip from the same period together with Michael McDonald: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDSLR9PVWxg&NR=1 (Solo starting around 1:50)

BTW: AFAIU it's just an educated guess based on personal perceptions of recordings like TTYD etc. that the first circuit of #0102 has been the "low-plate" version of the 4th generation "classic" ODS amps and not the "high-plate" version of the 4th generation "classic" ODS amps. AFAIK there aren't any pictures available of #0102 showing its first circuit before the skyline-update.

RF's '58 Strat:

"What do you look for in a Strat?

Everybody was playing Strats in the ’80s, and it was a good recording guitar, a good rhythm guitar. That's why I even started fooling around with one – more for accompaniment. But I finally sold my '58 dot-neck 335, and bought a '58 Strat, tobaccoburst. That's what I played with Miles Davis and later David Sanborn and my own gigs to some extent." ... "I continued to float back and forth between a Strat and the Robben Ford Model."

Source: http://www.vintageguitar.com/3401/robben-ford/

Yes, many have said that the FET helps bring SCs to life.

Some examples for the difference (same player, same - or at least similar - guitars, same guitar cable, same speaker-cabinet):

1st generation ODS - "NORMAL" input:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 857#130857

2nd generation ODS - "FET" input:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483 (clean intro: "NORMAL" input / Solo: "FET" input)
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 484#136484
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 802#140802

I am sure this is a part of the problem.

Just to avoid misunderstandings:

Taking into account all the professional recordings done with Dumble ODS amps in combination with single coil guitars IMO it seems to be rather obvious, that at least some or even many professional players didn't and still don't perceive any "problems" when using combinations of Dumble ODS amps and SC-guitars.

So IMO perhaps one of the most important parts of this "problem" might be the personal taste of the individual player perceiving such a "problem".

Cheers,

Max

[vibratoking]

The Elgam collective tones are very nice, no question. Thanks for the reminder. That's a good reference.

Taking into account all the professional recordings done with Dumble ODS amps in combination with single coil guitars IMO it seems to be rather obvious, that at least some or even many professional players didn't and still don't perceive any "problems" when using combinations of Dumble ODS amps and SC-guitars.

So IMO perhaps one of the most important parts of this "problem" might be the personal taste of the individual player perceiving such a "problem".

Max, thank you for your feedback and opinions. As I stated earlier, I have no experience with actual Dumble amps. I am only forming an opinion based on my experience with Dtype amps and from what I hear from others in a similar situation. I am using 'problem' for lack of a better word...maybe I should call it a phenomenon, which has a less negative connotation? I'll continue calling it a problem for now. The fact that there are professional recordings with SCs and Dumbles does not comment in any way on the 'problem'. I just don't agree with that logic. Much the same as John Bonham's squeaky bass pedal that can be heard on many Led Zep recordings. Is that squeak a 'problem' or not? In the end, music is an art form so judging whether something is good or not is a personal opinion and differs with each of us.

[Aaron]

Hi Larry,

This might give you a few ideas or hopefully inspire you.
I gutted my #124 build last week and am half way though a rebuild. My amp had 100k/1k5 for V1 and V2, 150k slope resistor and original Blackface Twin trannies. But I could never get the clean, clean enough.

So, I started this. Details to come...............

Aaron

[rogb]

Fired up the Strat today and was pleasantly surprised! It was easy to dial in some really sweet tones. I played through a bunch of stuff on different p/up and tone settings. There was a wide range of usable tones, much better than I remember it before.
Again, the OD trim need tweaking and the pre amp vol. Once you get the sweet spot of those, then away you go.

What I really noticed, especially as I haven't played this Strat for a while, as it has been up for sale, is that each guitar, Strat, Tele and 339 shines through on the OD with its own character. It doesn't sound like, say, "oh that's a Marshall" It sounds like a Strat/Tele/339 through a Dumble. The amp lets each part of the guitars character be revealed. The ash/maple/ D.Allen Dovers Strat has its unique tone and that is enhanced by the amp.
This is very good news, Strat no longer for sale!

[CHIP]

My 339 out shines my R8 through the OD on my #183.
Have to remember, HAD built these amps for the individual.
As I understand, and I may be wrong, the customer brought his guitar or guitars played them for HAD and he built the person an amp to his style and taste.

I recall reading a post from a forum member who used to hang out here, but no longer posts, stated that he was back stage with Carlton and RF, and others and RF commented in one way or another, that sometimes his amp begins to sound terrible until he has HAD adjust it, then it's great again.

[talbany]

BTW: AFAIU it's just an educated guess based on personal perceptions of recordings like TTYD etc. that the first circuit of #0102 has been the "low-plate" version of the 4th generation "classic" ODS amps and not the "high-plate" version of the 4th generation "classic" ODS amps. AFAIK there aren't any pictures available of #0102 showing its first circuit before the skyline-update.

I agree we do not know for sure if the 1st version of 102 was a low plate or high plate classic..I stand corrected..Although my ears tell me (TTYD) was a low plate.. My opinion/Speculating whatever you want to call it!

Tony

[Max]

The fact that there are professional recordings with SCs and Dumbles does not comment in any way on the 'problem'.

IMO it does:

As you will for sure remember it's correct what Robben Ford says: "Everybody was playing Strats in the ’80s" (source: http://www.vintageguitar.com/3401/robben-ford/ ). And as you will of course remember, too, these Strats have sometimes - or even often - been used in combination with Dumble ODS amps in the eighties in L.A. - owned by the players, or present in the studio, or rented from Andy Brauer Studio Rentals, or loaned from other studio cats like Steve Farris or Carlos Rios etc. You would perhaps be surprised on how many 80ies recordings what you hear is a Strat plugged into a Dumble ODS amp.

And all these players and all the producers responsible for these recordings obviously didn't have a big problem with these combinations of Dumble ODS amps and Strats - or other single coil guitars. And as you will of course remember, too, on many pictures of Alexander Dumble with a guitar in his hands, this guitar is a Strat.

So what you and others call a "problem" or "phenomenon"- or whatever word one feels best suited - is IMO perhaps just caused by the fact, that you - and others thinking like you - personally dislike the tone of some, or many, or even most Dumble ODS amps in combination with a Strat. And that's IMO just a matter of personal taste. Just as some people prefer beer and other people wine.

But of course I understand, that people disliking the combination of a Strat at hand with a Dumble ODS amp at hand, are looking for a way to overcome their personal problems with this kind of combination by some mods etc. - if the amp at hand on stage is such a Dumble ODS.

But on the other hand I have my doubts - and perhaps you understand what I want to say with this metaphor - if someone, who prefers beer but is lost on an island without beer, will get beer by modding the wine available on this island. Water > wine is reported, but wine > beer ... ?

What I want to say is this: Don't be too disappointed, if in the end you will have to use two different amps to be happy with a Strat and a Les Paul because wine might stay wine - even after some mods. Peronal taste is personal taste. And as far as I know many guitar players are very very happy players without a Dumble ODS or Dumble ODS-style amp at all - just because based on their personal taste they prefer other amplifiers - and not because they can't afford a Dumble ODS-style amp or don't know that they exist etc.

Dumble ODS amps IMO are just special tools for making music - just like other special tools for making music. And if someone needs a special kind of tool - a saw e. g. - even a modded hammer still might not do the job of a saw. That's what I would recommend taking into account when - based on personal taste - someone's facing the kind of problem that's the topic of this thread.

If someone should be looking for a versatile Dumble ODS circuit suited for many different musical styles from Punk to traditional Jazz and many different guitars from an Alembic to a Zemaitis I personally recommend a low-plate "classic" ODS 100W with a 100K slope resistor, a "standard" OD circuit with "trigger control" and perhaps "hf-taper control", an "old style" power supply and used old Twin iron, and in combination with one or more used EVM 12L Series II speakers (as used by Alexander Dumble in the 80ies).

But don't misunderstand me: IMO such a kind of configuration will perhaps not deliver the "best suited" tone for every style of music and together with every guitar - but IMO the best "compromise". After perhaps up to a year of adaptation IMO it will provide a player with a lot of fun who wants to feel comfortable and at home in many musical styles and with different acoustic and electric guitars.

Such a kind of configuration did never disappoint me up to now in whatever musical context and in combination with whatever kind of guitar I liked. But based on my own personal experience this configuration might ask for some months or even a year of patience until one has learned how to use all the switches and controls - including trigger and taper and the 100W/40W switch and the "dynamic-balance control" etc. - in best accord with individual taste - and perhaps how to integrate a Dumbleator and some fx-devices etc. in best accord with individual taste, too, and - last but not least - which tubes are in best accord with individual taste.

This is my personal bottom line based on my personal taste - at least in regard to "versatility".

BTW: Sometimes I think, that one of the advantages of the original amps might be, that the collector's value forces people to adapt to their individual character and to learn how to have fun with them - instead of immediately modding them if it shouldn't be a love at first sight after unpacking what UPS delivered.

Cheers,

Max

[rogb]

To all builders:^^^^^^^ Print this out, laminate and attach to wall behind your bench.

Apart from the UPS comment, which doesn't apply to scratch builders such as here on TAG... and is slightly disrespectful IMO in view of the countless hours put into these replicas by the folks on here, anyway, rant over

Thanks Max for this guide to Dumbles and voicing.

PS I even forgot to try the FET yesterday with the Strat, as the results were so pleasing in the Normal input.

Lord knows what goodies are available there!

[swt]

i live in patagonia, so i have built dumble type amps with whatever i can get, no special or fancy parts. i've heard robben's amp live, the only real dumble, and i can say that although that amp is brighter than mine, it's a matter of tweaking. i'm mainly a strat playing, and low plate classic, with gain around 1 o'clock, and some tweaks is all i need to get into srv territory. i've never built an original dumble that i like, but it's a fun circuit to mod...so here comes the flames...haha. one of my amps have low plates v1a,b and 220k 3k3, 150 2k2, od. 22uf or 10uf depending on ot and bass content on v1, and usual 4.7uf on v2. you also need to tweak the treble bleeder, probably with lower value resistor or pot. .047 output on v1b and series cap if needed on od entrance to get rid of flabiness. if blues is your thing you might want to try bluesmaster or marshall/bassman pi. and i never use master vol caps. let me know if you try this or something else that works.

[vibratoking]

Max, thanks for your thoughtful answer. Your comments regarding the large number of recordings using Strats and Dumbles have provoked some more thoughts about the situation. Here are several possibilites:

1. My SCs into my amp sound as good as SCs into real Dumbles that you mentioned and I just don't love the sound or recognize how special it is. I don't think this is true, based on a comparison of my amp's performance with my SCs and recordings I have heard. Also, many other members here have stated the same 'problem' with SCs.

2. My SCs into my amp truly don't sound as good as SCs into real Dumbles and I want to know why. Partly based on the comparison above as well as your arguments.

3. My SCs into my amp just don't sound or feel as special as my HBs do. This is without a doubt the case.

In the case of 1 - chalk it up to personal taste. My personal taste has already lead me to investigate the situation.

In the case of 2 - I suspect this is actually the case. Since I have already heard great things with my SC guitars through other amps, I am interested in why my amp does not deliver in the same way.

In the case of 3 - I want to know the root cause of why my amp does not respond as well to SCs as it does to HBs.

I want to know the root cause from an electronic point of view. For instance, statements such as "SCs don't have as much output as HBs" is not a complete answer from my point of view. If I can understand the root cause, then I can develop useful, repeatable methods to modify the circuit to account for any variations between SCs and HBs, for instance. I am not interested in randomly swapping component types and values in a desparate search for magic. If someone says that changing to low plates from high plates make SCs and HBs sound better, then several issues arise. Is it true IMO? I can make those changes and judge for myself. If I agree that it's true, then I still want to know why from an electronic POV.

So given the above comments, I am still looking for the root of the issue. I am guessing that some builders on this forum have devoted time to investigate this and probably have some insights. I suspect that some of these insights are closely held, although I'd love to hear what results those investigations yielded.

[67plexi]

vibratoking, Why don't you show us some gut shots of you amp ???
Jim Rolph tells me every time when I order pickup set's from him Don't expect much if you
have a tone turd guitar, My pickups won't make any difference.
Same thing applies to a guitar amp if you use china made parts don't expect much.
Study what resistors MR. Dumble used in his amps. And the CTS pot's from the 1960=1980
As far as I can tell on Dumble amps 90% of the tone is in the preamp
One book that may help is Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass by Merlin Blencowe.
Study the load line voltages on 12AX7 and match the voltages on known Dumble amps.
Once I have my preamp tubes matched then I adjust V-1 V-2 V-3 within one volt.
And match the current flow on all preamp and power tubes.
That gives me infinite sustain on the clean channel.
I know nothing on new production tubes on V-1 & V-2 I use 7025'S from the 1960'S-1970'S
I put the money 12AX7 in the PI V-3 1944-1963 10,000 hour tube.
For a 6L6GC STR-415 485 volts B+1 V-3 PI 250v V-2 200v V-1 185-195v
For EL34 485v B+1 V-3 PI 300v V-2 205v V-1 200v
Good luck on your tone quest.

[vibratoking]

Thanks for the post, 67plexi. You bring up many good points. I have a few particular questions if you don't mind?

Once I have my preamp tubes matched then I adjust V-1 V-2 V-3 within one volt.
And match the current flow on all preamp and power tubes.
That gives me infinite sustain on the clean channel.

What do you mean when you say "Once I have my preamp tubes matched..." Matched to what specifically?

I assume you are adjusting the dropping strings to adjust V-1 V-2 V-3 within one volt? Just double checking.

What procedure are you using to match the current flow on all the preamp tubes? Are you tweaking Rk beyond the standard values to match the current? If so, do you then tweak the corresponding Rp to keep the same operating point? I assume you are matching the current flow to what you calculate from the known layout/schematics?

I have wondered where the infinite clean sustain comes from. This is a great piece of information!

I will post some pics this weekend. I don't have all the approved parts.

[Zippy]

.....

[Zippy]

vibratoking, Why don't you show us some gut shots of you amp ???
Jim Rolph tells me every time when I order pickup set's from him Don't expect much if you have a tone turd guitar, My pickups won't make any difference.

VK - Not to call your guitar a Tone TurdTM, but is it possible that you're chasing the amp when at least part of the "failure" is your guitar?

[vibratoking]

I have two Strats and both are good sounding guitars. They both sound great plugged into many different amps.

My Strats don't sound bad through the Damp, just no magic like with HB guitars.


Sigh... I hope that's taken with the humor with which it is intended.

I specifically checked the Tone Turd box when I bought them sight unseen over the internet, but they weren't delivered that way.