Big rehash - Strat into Dumble - what really works

[rogb]

I'm always interested to hear what Tony has to say.
I had tried the 250K/350K Level/ trim once before but not with the low plate config.

I dropped the parts in and gave it a run through with HB and Scs.

Nope, not for me, too much low/mid for my ears.

Went back to the 100K/100K and straight away could dial in the tones I liked.
It's always worth a try for anybody that thinks their sound needs beefing up.

[vibratoking]

Thanks for all the input guys, everyone. You guys make this a great place.

It's coincidental that I was running some sims on the 123 preamp/ tonestack, at the same time Tony posted about 123's OD trimmer. I'll give that a try, but right now I am focused on the clean preamp. Then I'll move to the OD...one thing at a time.

It is interesting that the sims show that 123s frequency response attenuates much of the bass and low mids compared to the Skyliner. Pretty close to what I was doing with the mid cap and slope resistor, just a different implementation. It makes me think that I am on the right track. From 123, one can imagine that HAD must have come to a similar conclusion - that the strat sound is compromised due to the congestion in lows and low mids. I'll post some sim results after I get some of this sorted out so that others can see the differences. They are quite significant. So thanks to mhartman for mentioning and posting the 123 schematic. The trick will be to keep the great HB performance while also improving the SC's.

I'll post my results when I have more time to investigate.

[alvarezh]

@Tony, thank you for the tip.

On the layout of #124 done by Martin and you, the 10uF bypass caps are on the clean, not on the OD as you just stated.

@Vibrato, nice topic, thanks for all the research.

All the best to both.

[talbany]

Nope, not for me, too much low/mid for my ears.

Rogb
Here is how I approach it!!...EACH AMP IS DIFFERENT
I always use 100k OD trimmer..Lifting this and Level (or Drive) in most of the amps I've built is too much for humbuckers!
If I want to add just a touch of low mids I start at the opposite end and work back.. level control 250k
If I want more (at gig volume) I'll lift the Drive!!
This is usually plenty for me!!..Especially with a high plate..Be careful not to add too much and congest the OD tone as this will hamper the amps ability to sing..You want just enough so that the singles snarls at you..

Vibro
Instead of lifting the OD trimmer place it on the back of the amp as Strat's for me could always use a bump up in signal here!!
FWIW..High plates for Strats IMO sounds best in OD.. But for Clean I prefer the low Plates..I live with it..YMMV!!!!

I'll post some sim results after I get some of this sorted out so that others can see the differences

Here is some discussions and calculations (3db knee) on this matter
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 250k+drive
I use my ears here!!

On the layout of #124 done by Martin and you, the 10uF bypass caps are on the clean, not on the OD as you just stated.

Just turned 50..Looks like my memory is slipping..

Again Good Luck!!

Tony

[rogb]

Nope, not for me, too much low/mid for my ears.

Rogb
Here is how I approach it!!...EACH AMP IS DIFFERENT
I always use 100k OD trimmer..Lifting this and Level (or Drive) in most of the amps I've built is too much for humbuckers!
If I want to add just a touch of low mids I start at the opposite end and work back.. level control 250k
If I want more (at gig volume) I'll lift the Drive!!
This is usually plenty for me!!..Especially with a high plate..Be careful not to add too much and congest the OD tone as this will hamper the amps ability to sing..You want just enough so that the singles snarls at you..

Vibro
Instead of lifting the OD trimmer place it on the back of the amp as Strat's for me could always use a bump up in signal here!!
FWIW..High plates for Strats IMO sounds best in OD.. But for Clean I prefer the low Plates..I live with it..YMMV!!!!

I'll post some sim results after I get some of this sorted out so that others can see the differences

Here is some discussions and calculations (3db knee) on this matter
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 250k+drive

On the layout of #124 done by Martin and you, the 10uF bypass caps are on the clean, not on the OD as you just stated.

Just turned 50..Looks like my memory is slipping..

Again Good Luck!!

Tony

Thanks Tony, straight away, it felt congested and stopped singing, exactly like you wrote! Obviously way too much for my guitars and this amp
I'll pop the 250K Level back in and see how she goes.
Mines a 50w so hasn't the girthiness of the 100w. I think just a little more of the low/mid without losing the snarl and sing will be perfect.
I find I'm just rolling off a little on the guitar tone to "cream" things up.
I play a lot with keys and sax as well as show off bass players, so finding a space in the spectrum is really important.

[talbany]

Nope, not for me, too much low/mid for my ears.

Rogb
Here is how I approach it!!...EACH AMP IS DIFFERENT
I always use 100k OD trimmer..Lifting this and Level (or Drive) in most of the amps I've built is too much for humbuckers!
If I want to add just a touch of low mids I start at the opposite end and work back.. level control 250k
If I want more (at gig volume) I'll lift the Drive!!
This is usually plenty for me!!..Especially with a high plate..Be careful not to add too much and congest the OD tone as this will hamper the amps ability to sing..You want just enough so that the singles snarls at you..

Vibro
Instead of lifting the OD trimmer place it on the back of the amp as Strat's for me could always use a bump up in signal here!!
FWIW..High plates for Strats IMO sounds best in OD.. But for Clean I prefer the low Plates..I live with it..YMMV!!!!

I'll post some sim results after I get some of this sorted out so that others can see the differences

Here is some discussions and calculations (3db knee) on this matter
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 250k+drive

On the layout of #124 done by Martin and you, the 10uF bypass caps are on the clean, not on the OD as you just stated.

Just turned 50..Looks like my memory is slipping..

Again Good Luck!!

Tony

Thanks Tony, straight away, it felt congested and stopped singing, exactly like you wrote! Obviously way too much for my guitars and this amp
I'll pop the 250K Level back in and see how she goes.
Mines a 50w so hasn't the girthiness of the 100w. I think just a little more of the low/mid without losing the snarl and sing will be perfect.
I find I'm just rolling off a little on the guitar tone to "cream" things up.
I play a lot with keys and sax as well as show off bass players, so finding a space in the spectrum is really important.

Sounds like you would be happier with a 100W
FWIW..The low mids that the 100w gives you will always for me trump tweaking the pot values in a 50w..But maybe it will help you better find your spot in the mix!!

Good Luck!!
Tony

[Max]

... place it ... [OD trimmer] ... on the back of the amp ...

You'll find the trigger control on the back of some of the original ODS amps, too. Another obvious option would be placing it on the front - perhaps in combination with the h. f. taper control (#0121 with concentric pots e. g.: http://www.maverick-music.com/wp-conten ... 21_005.jpg - planned holes on the back: http://www.maverick-music.com/wp-conten ... 21_013.jpg)

[rogb]

Rogb
Here is how I approach it!!...EACH AMP IS DIFFERENT
I always use 100k OD trimmer..Lifting this and Level (or Drive) in most of the amps I've built is too much for humbuckers!
If I want to add just a touch of low mids I start at the opposite end and work back.. level control 250k
If I want more (at gig volume) I'll lift the Drive!!
This is usually plenty for me!!..Especially with a high plate..Be careful not to add too much and congest the OD tone as this will hamper the amps ability to sing..You want just enough so that the singles snarls at you..

Vibro
Instead of lifting the OD trimmer place it on the back of the amp as Strat's for me could always use a bump up in signal here!!
FWIW..High plates for Strats IMO sounds best in OD.. But for Clean I prefer the low Plates..I live with it..YMMV!!!!
Here is some discussions and calculations (3db knee) on this matter
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 250k+drive
Just turned 50..Looks like my memory is slipping..

Again Good Luck!!

Tony

Thanks Tony, straight away, it felt congested and stopped singing, exactly like you wrote! Obviously way too much for my guitars and this amp
I'll pop the 250K Level back in and see how she goes.
Mines a 50w so hasn't the girthiness of the 100w. I think just a little more of the low/mid without losing the snarl and sing will be perfect.
I find I'm just rolling off a little on the guitar tone to "cream" things up.
I play a lot with keys and sax as well as show off bass players, so finding a space in the spectrum is really important.

Sounds like you would be happier with a 100W
FWIW..The low mids that the 100w gives you will always for me trump tweaking the pot values in a 50w..But maybe it will help you better find your spot in the mix!!

Good Luck!!
Tony

Yeah I put the 250K Level back in and left the 100K OD trigger.
So far it sounds good, amp still singing Thanks again.

[sepulchre]

I'm sure you've heard this, but it's from another (#102) thread.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/strat_clip_604.mp3

[Structo]

That was Gil's clip wasn't it?

[sepulchre]

Yeah. I think it's a BF modded into a #102. It really sounds great IMHO but from what I can gather a #124 is generally better suited to Strats.

Btw, is there any intel about who the #124 was built for? Or maybe not their name but guitar used and playing style?

[renshen1957]

I've read ALL the threads regarding this. I mean ALL of them. I started with a 183 with 6L6 output section. Humbuckers sound great, Tele is good but not great, Strat is anemic. This is plugged into the normal input. I've been plugging my Strat and Tele into the FET input, which is a big improvement over the normal input but still not awesome like the humbucker into the normal.

Here is what I have tried based on previous threads:

- put slope resistor and mid cap on a switch. I've read great things about this mod, but I don't hear great things.
- classic tone stack vs skyliner. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things.
- various high plate low plate and combination plates. MAYBE a little improvement, but almost nothing in the big scheme of things. These don't result in the big changes that I expected?
- bright switching on cleans and mid switching on OD. Helpful tweaks, but very small tangible results.
- various tweaks in the Dlator, but the Dlator really doesn't change the HB vs SC situation.

What I plan to try:
- bluesmaster PI with 12AX7
- bluesmaster tone stack with Gary's trick.
- AB763 PI with 12AT7
- AB763 clean channel with some sort of Dstyle OD

What I am missing with the strat and tele is chimey, lively cleans, like my 65 SR, and a elastic, fat, singing OD. The strat and tele really aren't that enjoyable to play with this amp. They are good but not great into the FET input.

My LPs have more chime than my strat or tele through the clean side. This isn't the case with these guitars on many other amps. I am starting to feel that my Dclone is a humbucker only machine. I've made many changes, but none of them has changed the basic SC character of this amp.

There just seems to be no SC magic in this amp. I'd appreciate any comments.

So on goes this story..Here is my take!!..Strat's and Tele's do not do the high gain saturated OD thing well in these amps you mention...There are always tradeoffs involved with cascaded (clean feeds OD) style amps..Humbuckers always do the high gain thing better..They tend to stay better focused on the low end and have a more prominent low mid sonic punch higher output and darker that works much better when amplified 100000 times. if you are one who likes to run the drive up Humbuckers are the way to go!!..
Lower output Strat and some Tele's don't do as well at higher gain settings..They tend to go loose and can get buzzy and harsh since they don't have the low mid output gain like a humbucker..If you keep the gain down and think of the OD as an extension of the clean (bigger with a bit more hair/crunch,compression) they seem to do just fine run like this!!..Some people here have had good results by running the input vol up high and keep the drive low and increase the OD vol and pus the mids..(D-lators can help too by allowing you to push the master)Modifying the amp might help you but will NEVER be the same as a hot PAF!!
I recently picked up a Gibson 339 and loaded in a JB (coil tap) on the bridge and made some compromise and works great for me!!..Perhaps you should look into a coil tap setup?
There I said it!!

For those more experienced builders out there please let me know if you have a different take on this!!

All The Best!!

Tony

Hi Tony,

Good overview on the subject. What is your take on P-90 pickups? Somewhat off topic, but a single coil pickup.

Best regards,

Steve

[talbany]

Steve
Good question?...Let's take a teach the man to fish approach on this one..

To be straight here!!!.. When I think of (or reference Single coils) I am talking about traditional Fender Strat/Tele pickups (Low Alnicos and NOT overwound etc) There are so many different pickups manufactured today that are way out of spec ..Even now a day's some of the stock pickups in the newer guitars can be well off the reservation with respect to traditional...It seems every pickup guy has his/her idea of the perfect pickup...BUT what amp are they using,what sound are they going for,are they using much overdrive..On and on!!!!..

So with that said whenever you get a set of pickups with a higher gauss (stronger) magnets and over wound you notice a prominent mid push and darker.. The feel of the pickup changes too.. The stronger the field the faster the pickup responds altering feel..especially in the low end...Many players prefer this type of pickup when using multiple gain stages.(smoother tighter)
Generally an overwound pickup increases gain but at the expense of that top end sparkle we all like (especially in clean channel) A lower Alnico gives us a sweeter mids softer bass again more popular for clean use...
Most players who use allot of Gain prefer the stronger overwound pickups. The players who play mostly clean prefer the more traditional underwound (less output) style,,Since the ODS does both you have to be more selective at the guitar and pickups!!!

Most modern P90's are all over the place

You have to look at how the pickup was made and designed (same holds true with Tele Pickups and some Strat style made with stronger magnets and drastically overwound!!)
Since the ODS is a simple design the sound of that pickup is magnified without much color (along with your playing/technique) you have to strike a very delicate balance between clean and overdriven tones and at times be willing to compromise one for the other (clean OD)
Since we here are amp builders our immediate response is to start tweaking the Amp when in fact we should be looking at the guitar, what it is we want!! and of coarse what we want to say in our music!!...

Good Luck!!

Tony

[10thTx]

you have to strike a very delicate balance between clean and overdriven tones and at times be willing to compromise one for the other (clean OD)

Totally well said! And I think clean OD is a very accurate and reasonable term.

Thanks for sharing your perspective! It is valued.

With respect, 10thtx

[talbany]

Totally well said! And I think clean OD is a very accurate and reasonable term.

Actually I was going more for Clean vs OD there..

Tony