Ceriatone 183 and Ford Amp

[67plexi]

Andy, a good friend has a chain of music stores I still remember when I first saw your amps
On display took a week to get the grin off my face. I only buy from English speaking countries.
Yes I’m a redneck.


Steve.

[talbany]

Since the whole Rohs thing took effect parts prices have steadly risen..I remember paying almost 1/2 for most of these parts 5-6 years ago.. Couple this with the falling dollar has really gotten out of hand IMO..Sucking the labor life right out of this country..Here is the worst part.. In soldering motherboards, processors, and other parts. Europe has regulations that limit the use of lead in computers... SADLY, most U.S. based PC manufacturers completely ignore these lead-free regulations... Some of the common materials used in computers and computer parts include hazardous materials such as brominated flame-retardants, PVCs and numerous heavy metals like lead, cadmium and mercury. All of these are non bio-degradable and a health hazard if not disposed of properly. Also, because IT equipment has such a short life span, most of the e-waste finds it way in to landfills..
I suppose if we made all tube amps ROHAS compliant the world will be safer for or children..
ROHS what a bunch of Bullshit!!
Just venting..
BTW California is the only state in the US that is somewhat ROHS compliant..

Tony

[mcinku]

...I only buy from English speaking countries...

Watch out, everybody is speaking English nowadays... even Chines are getting better at it.

[Bob-I]

I only buy from English speaking countries.


Steve.

You ain't been to Jersey lately have you

[Stromgitarrenspieler]

If you wanna compete with Nik, then why not lower your pricing??. Then no one in the USA would have a need to buy a amp made in Malaysia. The pricing of most D clones made in the states keeps most full time guitarists like myself from being able to afford one.

It costs alot to build (properly and legally), not in your home, basement or garage. A true/real company in the US or even other places (with dealers, advertising, trade shows, warranty, CE and RoHs certifications etc) carries with it many expenses for insurance, taxes, overhead, that a small third world company does not bear. We've been over this lots of times.

Well, I've heard about a lot of true/real AMERICAN companies selling "the american way" to the whole world and producing stuff on behalf of the lower then minimum wages of chinese, malaysian, korean or what ever asian workers, kids and families. Not to mention the environment damage that behavior caused to those "far far away from home" areas.
And paying yourself a BIG yearly bonus for being SO CLEVER and so "economical".
You where calling it your "asian workbench", right?
(Do you remember the name and the year of the LAST Apple computer that was actually really MADE IN THE US?)
But now, the "asian workbench" get's smarter, actually "steals" your "clever" ideas and turns it back on you?

You guys "founded" globalism - so stop complaining!

What's next? "Exporting" your army to protect freedom? Or your might call it "intellectual property" this time.

The world "loves" you for doing that ... God bless america!

[dogears]

Now now Strom... Let's keep in on topic and not geopolitical. The builders in question are mom and pop shops in the US that build on site.

[paulster]

Er, Scott - I think it was Andy who started the whole geopolitical thing by trying (again) to insinuate that Nik is doing something illegal by not having his amps CE marked or using RoHS-compliant components, whilst failing to mention that many of the US builders (with Fuchs, Carol-Ann and Glaswerks being notable exceptions) couldn't care less about CE compliance or RoHS.

Indeed, one of the best-known US boutique builders happily ships amps to Europe completely illegally with no CE marks and using non-RoHS components.

This 'getting a pass' thing because you're American is getting a bit tiring. And I live here!

[dogears]

I must have missed that post. Andy posted in reaction to another poster who said the US made stuff should be cheaper to compete with the Ceriatone stuff. Andy with no insinuations spelled out why the stuff costs more. I did not read into any mention of illegalities regarding Nik, just regarding legally building int he US. He only posted a concise rebuttle that actually seems pretty accurate as well. Lets not forget about taxes, employee benefits, insurance, etc... All valid points.

Er, Scott - I think it was Andy who started the whole geopolitical thing by trying (again) to insinuate that Nik is doing something illegal by not having his amps CE marked or using RoHS-compliant components, whilst failing to mention that many of the US builders (with Fuchs, Carol-Ann and Glaswerks being notable exceptions) couldn't care less about CE compliance or RoHS.

Indeed, one of the best-known US boutique builders happily ships amps to Europe completely illegally with no CE marks and using non-RoHS components.

This 'getting a pass' thing because you're American is getting a bit tiring. And I live here!

[FUCHSAUDIO]

Paulster: It's a little more than just that. I've brought up the issues of CE and RoHs, as yet another example of one more way they simply bypass "the system". It's not some geopolitical witch hunt, just presenting the facts. I cannot comment on the US companies you mention, but I have seen it, and I am pretty shocked at the disregard for the law, and the financial risk they are taking.

The process of putting a product through the testing and certification is both time consuming and costly, if done correctly. The product and it's components are all tested to insure safety. That being said:

Currently, there is no requirement for CE or RoHs imports into the US. Most chains (Guitar Center and Long and McQuade are examples) don't want the liability of non UL or CE approved products injuring a customer or burning his house down. Any consumer is at his own risk buying something from any overseas builder, as opposed to an actual "company" that's at-least carrying some kind of a safety seal. Suppose you had an amp burn your house down, injure or kill a family member, or whatever, you would be faced with attempting to obtain restitution from an overseas entity. We don't know if it's a corporation, LLC, or just "some guy" with a credit card account do we ?

We do know their costs of engineering and designing are pretty much non-existent (dare I say free?), thanks to Amp Garage. They show little or no regard for the trademarks of other companies, and so far have gone without persecution.

Another issue is that more than a few people have found that these guys "fudge" invoices to reduce customs, send packages marked "surplus computer parts, no commercial value" and so forth. Besides the issues of ethics and legality, it's yet one more circumventing of the legitimate channels other companies have to work within.

The costs of operating a small business in the US is staggering: Insurance, rent, advertising, distributor and/or dealer markups, engineering costs (to actually design something), it never ends. When someone sells an amp outright for less than the cost of materials to build a quality product, it has to tell you something.

Hasn't this subject has been beaten to death enough ?

[BobW]

Paulster: It's a little more than just that. I've brought up the issues of CE and RoHs, as yet another example of one more way they simply bypass "the system". It's not some geopolitical witch hunt, just presenting the facts. I cannot comment on the US companies you mention, but I have seen it, and I am pretty shocked at the disregard for the law, and the financial risk they are taking.

The process of putting a product through the testing and certification is both time consuming and costly, if done correctly. The product and it's components are all tested to insure safety. That being said:

Currently, there is no requirement for CE or RoHs imports into the US. Most chains (Guitar Center and Long and McQuade are examples) don't want the liability of non UL or CE approved products injuring a customer or burning his house down. Any consumer is at his own risk buying something from any overseas builder, as opposed to an actual "company" that's at-least carrying some kind of a safety seal. Suppose you had an amp burn your house down, injure or kill a family member, or whatever, you would be faced with attempting to obtain restitution from an overseas entity. We don't know if it's a corporation, LLC, or just "some guy" with a credit card account do we ?

We do know their costs of engineering and designing are pretty much non-existent (dare I say free?), thanks to Amp Garage. They show little or no regard for the trademarks of other companies, and so far have gone without persecution.

Another issue is that more than a few people have found that these guys "fudge" invoices to reduce customs, send packages marked "surplus computer parts, no commercial value" and so forth. Besides the issues of ethics and legality, it's yet one more circumventing of the legitimate channels other companies have to work within.

The costs of operating a small business in the US is staggering: Insurance, rent, advertising, distributor and/or dealer markups, engineering costs (to actually design something), it never ends. When someone sells an amp outright for less than the cost of materials to build a quality product, it has to tell you something.

Hasn't this subject has been beaten to death enough ?

Andy, I'm sure you've heard the saying don't argue w/ a fool. Probably best to just ignore those who don't understand that compliance to meeting regulations comes with a cost. Those who don't understand that will probably buy a cheaper amp anyway. Thanks for your great contributions to this forum.

[Stromgitarrenspieler]

I've brought up the issues of CE and RoHs, as yet another example of one more way they simply bypass "the system".

What "system" is bypassed? Better, who's "system" is bypassed?
And who are "they", who bypass? The ones you called "third world" in a recent post?

Well, who got the most out of this "system" in the past 65+ years?

I'm just curious ...

[Structo]

Hey Strom,
Weren't you the one that got shocked when you touched the switch on your C'lator?

[Stromgitarrenspieler]

Hey Strom,
Weren't you the one that got shocked when you touched the switch on your C'lator?

Yes, you are right! I was "shocked" ...

But I got help still being in the rehearsal room. Send Nik an email via the iPhone, got an answer within 30min. Made photos and fixed the problem the next hour.
Of cause, very good point for Andy Fuchs, THAT would not have been happend, if manufactured right. But everybody makes mistakes. Even on a boutique amp something can be wrong. It's then cover by a warranty.

So back on topic - I will pay good money for good work (if I have it). And I'm very far away from saying that a Fuchs, Two-Rock, you-name-it amp isn't good work. It is VERY GOOD WORK!!
But from a customer point of view the ceriatone amp I bought is good work, too. I was very skeptical sending over 1200$ via internet to malaysia in the first place. But I found a very supportive company with a given person to answer all my questions - most of the time within one hour. And receiving a product that was build well and shipped on time and save. Handed it over to my LOCAL and trusted amp-tech to check it (and payed him for that!) before using. Should have done that with the c-later, too
I don't know any other amp company, where I can hand over the gear to a technician of MY CHOICE and even have a wiring diagram right from the start and still have the support from the builder, if I need to.
To be more precise: There is only one place in germany where I can buy a Two-Rock (350km away). I know only one place in germany where I can buy a Fuchs (250km away). And where do I get service without loosing warranty for this amps? From my LOCAL amp-tech? I guess NOT.

So, from a CUSTOMER point of view: Where is the benefit from the "system"? I know that one part of the higher price of a Fuchs or Two-Rock is the warranty. But again - where's the benefit for me as a customer, that I have to go at least 250km to have it serviced? Will it be serviced in germany, anyways? AND still pay a higher (double or triple) price?

I don't need "regulations" or a "system". I don't need fancy adds nor auditions on the "Musikmesse" or a flashy website. I need a good sounding amp that works well and is still AFFORDABLE for a musician.

---
Warranty:

XXX products are covered by a five year limited warranty, which covers any repairs required to bring the unit back to it's original factory stock condition. It excludes freight to or from the factory, or authorized service depot. (...) This warranty excludes abuse, tubes, blown speakers, cosmetics, physical damage (such as water), shipping damage, or attempted repairs by anyone other than a XXX® authorized service facility or technician.
---

What do I do when the XXX amp breaks one day before a gig? Drive 250km to get it serviced? If it GETS serviced on time, anyhow.
No, I will hand it over to MY amp-tech to make the gig and, guess what - loose the warranty.

Oh, of cause, I might buy a spare amp ....

I'm not a dentist!

[pinner]

Back on topic??? Andy responded to a question why don't american builders reduce their prices. Thats it. He gave a very good explanation that stuff made HERE HAS to follow RULES/LAWS!!!!! I am not sure why you are on soap box or where the misunderstanding come s from. That is all he said.

[vibratoking]

Hey Strom,

I don't understand your apparent anger about American companies using Asian labor? European companies have been doing it for just as long. I am, or have been, heavily involved with quite a few European companies that are practicing the exact same thing that you accuse American companies of.

So I ask you. Why the double standard? I don't approve of the practice, but Europeans are equally guilty.