Speaker trials - (warning: lengthy, rambling)

[greiswig]

I've got a Bob Burt V-12 (2x12 pine with angled front, floating baffles, oval-back opening) that I've been using, with a G12-65 Reissue and a Scumnico. I tried a number of different speakers in this cabinet before settling on these:

1984 G12-65s (for sale!)
EV-12L
Scholz Sugarcone
Celestion Gold

The EV was great, as expected, but seemed to lack some character that I was after. The G12-65 has something going on in the mids that complements my amp nicely.

The fist Sugarcone I bought went back to the manufacturer, because even after breaking it in a bit, it sounded nasal compared to the G12-65. When I talked to the guy I bought it from, he at first didn't believe me, so I put white noise through it and the G12-65, and sent him the resulting spectrum plots. He said "There's something wrong...send it back." So I did. The second Sugarcone I got was much better: it has a lot of the qualities that the EV does, but somehow sounds more organic. I know it's odd to say this, but maybe I'm have a touch of synesthesia: the midrange on the Sugarcone sounds chewy to me...like good taffy. Nice quality! But it is also very efficient, and overwhelmed the G12-65 when I tried to pair them up.

One thing about the Sugarcone, though: there is a "slap" quality to it that I've noticed that is hard to get used to. Every so often, I'll notice a note or frequency that, if you're positioned in the beam, will just slap you upside the head. This speaker has a small, hard-plastic dust cover to it, and I wonder whether this quality is attributable to that. I wish the speaker were a bit less beamy, a bit more able to distribute the wonderful tone it has more evenly.

Long story short(er)... I picked up an ASW KTS-70 used (for sale!) to try out. That lead me on a bit of a spending spree, which included a WGS Blackhawk and borrowing a Scumback M75-LDHC. I broke in all new speakers using some pink noise at around 40-50W per speaker for around 24 hours.

Part of the speaker trials entailed hooking up the speakers in parallel using a 16 ohm rheostat so that I could balance the volume of the speakers relative to one another, but still present the amp with an 8 ohm load. This worked surprisingly well, but I'm not sure it is something I'd want to do long-term. Then I would connect them in series (I run my cab at 16 ohms), without the rheostat.

Okay, on to the new speakers:

The KTS-70 is a nice speaker, but I was left wondering what all the fuss was about. Good mids, with less bite to them. Part of what I liked about going to 100k plates all through my amp was the bite/cut that it gave the amp in a live setting, and this actually seemed like a bit of a step back in that regard. The highs extend up above the others except for the EV, but it just didn't do it for me. Very nice cleans, but the OD is what I have this amp for, and it did less well in that regard than others.

The M75-LDHC is nice. That's more the territory I'm after, and I need to test this out more. It is very similar to the G12-65 reissue, tonally, and it's hard to pick a favorite between those two. The Reissue has something very nice going on in the upper mids which the Scumback lacks a little, but it has something nice going on a little lower in the midrange that the Reissue lacks. I prefer the Reissue G12-65 to the 1984's that I have, FWIW, especially in the bass. I think I prefer the Scumback to the Reissue, but not by a wide margin.

The 100W WGS Blackhawk is a bit of a surprise in a good way. It's nicely balanced, has a good full range, and sounds "meaty" all the way through. It also is quite sensitive, so once again pairing becomes important lest one speaker get overwhelmed. It sounds full like the EV without ever getting sterile sounding.

Where I landed as of last night after a few hours of speaker swaps: I'm going to try the Sugarcone/Blackhawk pairing for a bit. They are well-balanced in terms of sensitivity, and in terms of tone. In the room where I was doing all this, it actually seemed to take away some of the beaminess of the Sugarcone, or perhaps just balance it out so that the overall cabinet is less beamy. (But I still wonder what the Sugarcone would sound like with a large, softer dustcap)

I know this kind of thing is extremely subjective, but I'm always interested in what other peoples' experiences are. Hopefully this will help this community a bit, since it has helped me SO very much. I'd encourage others to chime in with their own experiences. If you've got specific questions, feel free to ask.

[Structo]

Interesting speaker study and review.

All I know is it can sure get expensive trying to find "the speaker".

The Blackhawk sounds interesting.

But the fact that Warehouse Speakers are selling a $234 speaker kind of leaves me cold.
Yeah, I realize it is an Alnico magnet but still.

I've heard very good things about Bob Burt enclosures.

[Billion81]

What amp is this for?

I've played with alot of those speakers-

I settled on the M75 LHDC in my Glaswerks Zingaro- Love it. Amazing cleans and super tight OD. Blows away that ET-65 that I had in there before.

In my 2X12 cab I am really digging the Fane Medusa speakers though from a tone standpoint they are similar to a higher powered 12-65.

for a 1X12 solution the I ditched my EV for the Fane Studio 12L. that thing seems to work with anything.

[dbeeman]

Did you try taping a heavy felt disc to the Sholtz dustcap?

[odourboy]

Love hearing about speakers... what kind of cabs are you using with each of these speakers?

Just got a quote on a Fane Studio 12L - $289 plus shipping.. OUCH!

What amp is this for?

I've played with alot of those speakers-

I settled on the M75 LHDC in my Glaswerks Zingaro- Love it. Amazing cleans and super tight OD. Blows away that ET-65 that I had in there before.

In my 2X12 cab I am really digging the Fane Medusa speakers though from a tone standpoint they are similar to a higher powered 12-65.

for a 1X12 solution the I ditched my EV for the Fane Studio 12L. that thing seems to work with anything.

[Scumback Speakers]

But the fact that Warehouse Speakers are selling a $234 speaker kind of leaves me cold.
Yeah, I realize it is an Alnico magnet but still.

Alnico magnets just cost more money, a lot more. My cost difference between a ceramic and an alnico is $80. It just is what it is.

[daydreamer]

Weber sell an 'beam blocker' device, check their website

http://www.webervst.com/blocker.html

Andy

[greiswig]

Weber sell an 'beam blocker' device, check their website

http://www.webervst.com/blocker.html

Andy

Been there, done that. It seemed like one of those things that looks good on paper, but works less well in reality. For very high treble diffusion, I've found the foam donut diffuser discussed on TGP works better. But the Sugarcone's issue is not up there; it's in the mids.

[greiswig]

Did you try taping a heavy felt disc to the Sholtz dustcap?

No, I haven't tried that. I'll give it a try soon. Speaker design is interesting, for sure.

[greiswig]

What amp is this for?

I've played with alot of those speakers-

I settled on the M75 LHDC in my Glaswerks Zingaro- Love it. Amazing cleans and super tight OD. Blows away that ET-65 that I had in there before.

Have you tried the Celestion Heritage 12-65?

My amp's a modified DLite running KT88s and with quite a few other changes. I, too, really like the M75. I need to gig with that one, too, because I get the impression it will shine more with some greater volume.

The Scumnico ended up in my 12x10 cab with the 10" version of the M75. Nice combination! Jim knows his stuff, for sure.

Any of you try the ASW speaker? I wanted to like it, buy just couldn't quite "get it."

[Billion81]

What amp is this for?

I've played with alot of those speakers-

I settled on the M75 LHDC in my Glaswerks Zingaro- Love it. Amazing cleans and super tight OD. Blows away that ET-65 that I had in there before.

Have you tried the Celestion Heritage 12-65?

My amp's a modified DLite running KT88s and with quite a few other changes. I, too, really like the M75. I need to gig with that one, too, because I get the impression it will shine more with some greater volume.

The Scumnico ended up in my 12x10 cab with the 10" version of the M75. Nice combination! Jim knows his stuff, for sure.

Any of you try the ASW speaker? I wanted to like it, buy just couldn't quite "get it."

I had a 2X12 cab with the KTS 70s- They worked really well in my little 2061 CX Slant cab particularly with the Fuchs modded bassman- Really well in fact. Then I sold the cab like an idiot and put them in a Buzzbomb cab. They didn't work nearly as well in there.

For my 90s ODS HRM amp I like the Fane Studio and the 65 watt M75 which is a 65 watt "Greenback" variant.

I haven't played a D'lite with the KT88 compliment but the 6l6 and 6V6 versions kicked A$$ with the 12-65s that Moss had. Not sure if they were regular or Heritage.

[daydreamer]

can the back of the cab be closed? A bit of compression may settle it down a bit. I'd consider 'living with it' a while as well, play some gigs, different rooms etc, it's like color that way, different time off day can make a world of difference! Like studio monitors speakers, the better they are the more they show you, with guitars/amps that's not always a good thing!! Expensive habit this swapping speakers thing...If you are happy with the general tone of the amp/cab set up, the rest of what you are hearing is the room your in, resonant frequencies, standing waves etc, IT WILL CHANGE on stage!!, IMO of course.

Andy

[greiswig]

can the back of the cab be closed? A bit of compression may settle it down a bit.
Andy

Hi, Andy. Not sure which speaker you're talking about, or if you're even talking to me...but the Bob Burt cab can't be closed. The one I made (12x10) can be closed. Which are you recommending trying in a closed cab?

As for the effects being different at a gig, boy ain't that the truth. One of the things that surprises me constantly is that something that sounds great to me at home (chewy taffy) doesn't work as well at a gig. I'm hoping that may change with this new pairing. But the Scumnico/G12-65 mix worked really well at gigs, and reliably, and I'm betting the M75 instead of the G12-65 might be a shade better still.

But I really look forward to hearing this new pair at a gig...next one's on the 17th!

-g

[daydreamer]

yeah sorry, i was asking you g!
just thought that punchy mid range thing you were describing sounds like the resonant frequency of the speaker/ cab/ room whatever combining, just thought the close back cab would remove the room factor a bit.

I've been running my 15watt traynor dark horse through a 400 watt PA speaker cab which is ported etc and has the tweater cone, really means I hear everything! the tone controls have a massive effect and it makes it easy to shape.

would love to hear how you go at your gig, a new speaker cab is next for me, as this set up sounds ok, but looks naff!

Andy

[67plexi]

The Fane Studio 12L looks like a fine speaker would love to try a pair.
This setup works for me so far 4 x 12 Celestion G-25 4 ohm.
2 x 12 Celestion 12-65 closed back 4 ohm. Six twelve’s @ 2 ohm’s.
The Marshall cab, thick like soup with the bone the Mesa cab is way bright.
The two combined kills 3-D sound. The Mesa cab alone sucks will try an oval open back like HAD did.

Steve.