Starting a Business

[daydreamer]

I'm considering getting into amp building and other audio related pursuits full time. I considered tagging this question onto the "paint by numbers" thread as many of the people whose opinion I would like have posted there and I'm sure many others have watched on smiling!

This part of my "due diligence" research before jumping into the real test, which is 'learning the math' of how tube amps work, and I guess the question is this;

How commercially viable is it to build tube amps, with point to point wiring etc? More specifically I'm trying to get a handle on the number of hours spent on the build, the components I can price from the net. For sake of the question, lets assume a Fender Deluxe amp 5E3 model, or there about complexity wise, perhaps even simpler. The data i would love, but can't imagine getting from local stores (I will try though), is actual sales figures of different models then work backwards from what I learn here to whether what is selling can be viably built by hand.

When I say viable, I mean making a living not a killing. And no, I'm not planning on quitting my job tomorrow!; from what I know so far, I have at least a year of intense learning and as many builds as I can manage and I will have to study for a limited electrical license in Perth as well.

cheers
Andy

[tubeswell]

Its not viable at all. So many guys have tried to go there. Best you can hope for in this economic climate is to recover your parts costs. And if you aren't a qualified liability-insured and professionally indemnified EE, then beware the poor sod who electrocutes himself on your amp.

[paulster]

That's it in a nutshell.

There are plenty of people who sell amps but many would fail to meet basic electrical safety standards because they've been built "by numbers" like they used to. I've seen commercial builds with the neutral/cold mains lead fused instead of the live/hot, neutral/cold tied to the chassis via a non-Class Y capacitor, self-tapping screws used to secure tube sockets right alongside plate wires, etc. The list goes on.

In Europe, for example, unless your amp is RoHS compliant and CE marked it's illegal to sell or import. So that would some very well known boutique brands.

In the US there isn't the same restriction but you'd better hope you'd actually be able to meet some level of approval even if you haven't actually sought it if someone makes a claim against you. And then you'd want them to be making a claim against your insurer rather than you personally.

[daydreamer]

Sort of like the car industry then, even the big boys can't make much of a go of it?!

That's a shame.

So It would have to be a far bigger business, employing said EE, using off shore manufacturing etc to stand a chance?. That would explain why I only see $3000 plus boutique tube amps for sale that could qualify has hand built in a 'free country'. Sort defeats the whole idea really. Maybe lotto will be good to me tomorrow and I can do it just for fun.

I still would like to do the numbers based on your experience, even if it's not enough to be viable on it's own, as a part of a larger venture/ brand marketing line of products, I would like to see where the price really starts. (I search the net and do see guys selling amps, but the prices seems to vary wildly)

If you have the patience, I would love it if you pointed me to a thread of your last build and gave me an estimate of hours. That gives me something to judge the boutique amps I see for sale against. It is a cheeky question I know, as some reading this sell amps, but unless they also live in Perth, Western Australia, I can't see the harm, shipping alone is like a 'tarriff'; I live in the world's most isolated capital, I wouldn't be able to compete in Adelaide let alone Wellington, NZ or USA!

[67plexi]

Andy, Got a big bank roll. I make custom wood carving tools
sales have been dead for the last few years
I have big bucks in stock and machines and tools
the amp building stuff is fun for me never made a dime on my builds
to make it fly you have to make a amp that blows away all others
after a few thousand builds you will make it or not
but if that is your dream go for it.

Steve.

[daydreamer]

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. Do you have a website that you sell them though?

Juneau looks like a beautiful place, Love the mountains! I'm guessing isolation is a factor with the tools? Or just the GFC?

I don't have a bankroll as such, I would have enough equity to make a go of it. From what I'm gathering (from searching the net as well) It's a matter of hitting it hard or not at all.

thanks

Andy

[Randy Magee]

You can make a small fortune building custom amps... all you need to start is a LARGE fortune...

[daydreamer]

hahahaha, I'm getting the picture....

[Bob-I]

There is so much of the business model not covered here that it's difficult to advise.

1) Suppliers
2) Engineering, RoHS compliance, safety, reliability
3) Warranty, coverage, costs
4) Distribution
5) Marketing

Not meant to be a downer, just meant to prevent a disaster down the road. Go about it the right way and you might have a go of it, go about it half assed and you could lose your shirt.

[Phil_S]

To get any sort of bulk pricing, the kind you need to make a profit, you'll need to buy in quantities that seem unrealistic and that may force you to mortgage your house. Then, you may build the most toneful amp in the whole world, but how will you get noticed? There is an awful lot of competition. No, there are too many pitfalls to this sort of boutique building. If you hobby build and sell 3 or 4 a year, maybe you can earn enough to keep your habit fed. Don't quit your day job just yet.

There's nothing wrong with some enthusiasm. I'm reminded of the child's story, "The Carrot Seed" about an enthusiastic young boy who doesn't know any better and plants a carrot seed. Everyone in the family tells him, "It won't grow!" He waters it and pulls weeds around it. It grows so large, he has to put it in a wheelbarrow. Anything is possible with determination and vision.

Talk to some of the people who have done this and made a name for themselves. I think they will talk to you. Find out firsthand what it takes. Make up your own mind.

[daydreamer]

Thanks Bob-I,
I'm definitely hearing you there; that stuff isn't lost on me; I manage a business, and have been self-employed before. Been involved in start-ups (currently running one now!)
But as Charles Wright sang in Express Yourself, "everything don't mean a thing, if it ain't the thing you want'!!

Why not just jump in (and start building)? Well, Family with 3 kids, I spend alot of time on music as it is, rehearsing/ gigging/ recording. I have pretty decent recording gear etc, as far as determination; I run marathons for goodness sake, so it's not laziness!
But rather I'm trying to gather info on the real state of affairs in the hand built tube amp world. If it's not a skill that is actually making anyone any money, I have to temper my enthusiasm. I get interested in everything musical. I modify my guitars almost on the way home from the shop!...

This whole area of expertise is really drawing me in, but from what I gather it is a bit of a dying art. and from these answers and what the net throws up, it may have to be a back burner interest. It may be better I learn to speak Chinese.

[daydreamer]

Thanks Phil_S,

It would be a great world if everyones dreams came true, or maybe not, who knows? though I don't think we will have to worry about that anytime soon.

I feel the isolation in Perth could be an advantage if I could find a mentor business in the US, like you said, someone who knows what it takes, and I basically emulate (clone would be the right term around here, heh?!) them. I've noticed the ammo box amps seem popular, but until last week, I had never seen anything like them. thats the sort of amp I think could do well in Perth at the right price. I get the impression that it is pretty common in the US to see them? To me the have all the novelty needed to make a splash here. Does anyone know (or is anyone actually ) Bruce Clement? His number #7 amp seems to be getting great reviews. But like what I said about distance being it's own 'tarrif' I'm not likely to see them in stores here, so it set me off dreaming....

Andy

[Structo]

Besides having the building chops you also have to have the contacts in which to market your amps.

You have to network among the musicians to get your name out there.
Usually this happens because you do tech work for some of the notable musicians local to you and your name gets out by word of mouth.

This can take years depending how fortunate you are and how hungry you are for the work.

Then as you gain more clientle, you can approach one of your guitarists and say hey, check out this amp I built.
If the guy loves it and just has to have it, you may have a chance.
If his reaction is meh, just another amp, you have more work to do.

Just like any small business, it's a challenge to get off the ground and will take a lot of hard work.

Good luck

[daydreamer]

Thanks Tom. Got to pack up now, thanks for all the great advice guys, it hasn't fallen on deaf ears. A hopeless dreamer maybe, but I alway remember the advice I should have taken at the very least ...happy all saints (if thats what you say? !!!.)

[Gibsonman63]

I would suggest building an amp or two and see how you like it. Sometimes things that are fun for a little while become tedious after many hours.

I don't have the experience that many here have, but for me, I can only do the really tedious stuff for a couple of hours at a time. After that, my output falls off dramatically.