Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

[fritferret]

http://www.uhuh.com/laws/femalaw.htm

man, that website is a propaganda website! just go to www.uhuh.com and look around. the very top link on the page is to something called socialists are democrats. another one links to soemthing called Democratism = Socialism = Communism = Fascism. this is wingnut type stuff.

more misleading and decontextualized quotes.... the executive order you cite in reply to structo is order 12148. the order actually only combined several agencies that already existed. combining them did several things, not least of which was increasing nimbleness and efficiency.

[NickC]

http://www.uhuh.com/laws/femalaw.htm

man, that website is a propaganda website! just go to www.huhs.com and look around.

more misleading and decontextualized quotes.... the executive order you cite in reply to structo is order 12148. the order actually only combined several agencies that already existed. combining them did several things, not least of which was increasing nimbleness and efficiency.

Has the presidential appointee controlling FEMA, by virtue of executive orders, been empowered with what was formerly the exclusive province of the duly elected executive (President) of the United States .... or not?

[NickC]

man, that website is a propaganda website! just go to www.uhuh.com and look around. the very top link on the page is to something called socialists are democrats. another one links to soemthing called Democratism = Socialism = Communism = Fascism. this is wingnut type stuff.

more misleading and decontextualized quotes.... the executive order you cite in reply to structo is order 12148. the order actually only combined several agencies that already existed. combining them did several things, not least of which was increasing nimbleness and efficiency.

You have messed up your formatting with your post. The words attributed to me, are yours.

[fritferret]

Has the presidential appointee controlling FEMA, by virtue of executive orders, been empowered with what was formerly the exclusive province of the duly elected executive (President) of the United States .... or not?

if you're asking if fema was made an independent agency, the answer is yes. currently it works under the deparment of homeland security.

i think i've sufficiently dmonstrated that the perspective you're coming at this from is just false. it rests on poor logic (using logical fallacies) and poor research (misquoting, attributing words to people who never said or wrote them, ignoring context or decontextualizing somethign altogether). those are the thigns that hold your point of view together which means there's nothing holding your point of view together. the links you're trying to draw don't exist. but rather than re0evaluate your position, you just ignore the things that are in fact wrong and press forward w/ a faulty argument.

i don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

[NickC]

man, that website is a propaganda website! just go to www.huhs.com and look around.

more misleading and decontextualized quotes.... the executive order you cite in reply to structo is order 12148. the order actually only combined several agencies that already existed. combining them did several things, not least of which was increasing nimbleness and efficiency.

if you're asking if fema was made an independent agency, the answer is yes. currently it works under the deparment of homeland security.

i think i've sufficiently dmonstrated that the perspective you're coming at this from is just false. it rests on poor logic (using logical fallacies) and poor research (misquoting, attributing words to people who never said or wrote them, ignoring context or decontextualizing somethign altogether). those are the thigns that hold your point of view together which means there's nothing holding your point of view together. the links you're trying to draw don't exist. but rather than re0evaluate your position, you just ignore the things that are in fact wrong and press forward w/ a faulty argument.

i don't even know what we're talking about anymore.



Has the presidential appointee controlling FEMA, by virtue of executive orders, been empowered with what was formerly the exclusive province of the duly elected executive (President) of the United States .... or not?

Again, you have messed up your formatting with your post above. I will attempt to correct, see below.

[NickC]

Has the presidential appointee controlling FEMA, by virtue of executive orders, been empowered with what was formerly the exclusive province of the duly elected executive (President) of the United States .... or not?

if you're asking if fema was made an independent agency, the answer is yes. currently it works under the deparment of homeland security.

i think i've sufficiently dmonstrated that the perspective you're coming at this from is just false. it rests on poor logic (using logical fallacies) and poor research (misquoting, attributing words to people who never said or wrote them, ignoring context or decontextualizing somethign altogether). those are the thigns that hold your point of view together which means there's nothing holding your point of view together. the links you're trying to draw don't exist. but rather than re0evaluate your position, you just ignore the things that are in fact wrong and press forward w/ a faulty argument.

i don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

[fritferret]

Has the presidential appointee controlling FEMA, by virtue of executive orders, been empowered with what was formerly the exclusive province of the duly elected executive (President) of the United States .... or not?

if you're asking if fema was made an independent agency, the answer is yes. currently it works under the deparment of homeland security.

i think i've sufficiently dmonstrated that the perspective you're coming at this from is just false. it rests on poor logic (using logical fallacies) and poor research (misquoting, attributing words to people who never said or wrote them, ignoring context or decontextualizing somethign altogether). those are the thigns that hold your point of view together which means there's nothing holding your point of view together. the links you're trying to draw don't exist. but rather than re0evaluate your position, you just ignore the things that are in fact wrong and press forward w/ a faulty argument.

i don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

fixed. i'll be around a little longer if you'd care to reply directly to any of the aforementioned falsehood in your argument(s).

[NickC]

if you're asking if fema was made an independent agency, the answer is yes. currently it works under the deparment of homeland security.

i think i've sufficiently dmonstrated that the perspective you're coming at this from is just false. it rests on poor logic (using logical fallacies) and poor research (misquoting, attributing words to people who never said or wrote them, ignoring context or decontextualizing somethign altogether). those are the thigns that hold your point of view together which means there's nothing holding your point of view together. the links you're trying to draw don't exist. but rather than re0evaluate your position, you just ignore the things that are in fact wrong and press forward w/ a faulty argument.

i don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

Time will tell.


What we're talking about is the systemic aggregation of power in government, and the abuse of that power. What is the solution to the abuse of power, especially that of the executive branch? The framers of the Constitution understood that Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. They had that in mind when they drafted the Constitution, by limiting government ..... by restricting it to well defined functions. What is the solution when it grows so powerful that it tramples upon the rights and liberties of the people?

[Mark]

This is something people NEVER GET. Some propoganda is really meant for people who don't get it, because a good education and a little experience will negate the arguments.

Nope, I disagree entirely Kevstar.

The examples in Australia that come to mind are plain packaging for cigarettes and pre-commitment on gambling.

Both social evils and pretty much a no-brainer. Still the corporations are fighting it tooth and nail.

[talbany]

Well the affidavit filed(Posted below) does indeed describe fingerboard blanks. If US F&W are correct then millions of guitars, mandolins, violins, you name it, are now illegal.. We are all stuffed and India is about to loose a significant export trade. Has all Indian ebony fingerboard blanks been exported using the incorrect tariff code?.. This really is a terrible mess, and the more publicity Gibson gets from this the better.. This crazy madness has to stop. Thankfully Gibson has the resources to defend itself publically and legally.

It is interesting to note that the Lacey Act amendments were introduced to stop illegally logged timber from being imported into the US. This wood was not illegally logged, there is nothing in the affidavit that claims the wood was illegally logged.(probably why they have not filed any charges yet) Also interesting to note, quoted from the US F&W web site...

"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the premier government agency dedicated to the conservation, protection, and enhancement of fish, wildlife and plants, and their habitats. "

This has nothing to do with conservation or protection of Indian Ebony and Rosewood. It is basically a legal trade agreement dispute and should be submitted to the WTO by Indian govt. first..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Disput ... ement_Body

For this action to be treated with such force here in the US by US officials should not be tolerated and dealt with publicly.. What US F&W are effectively doing is to make a practice that has been going on for 30 odd years (i.e export of Indian Ebony and Rosewood from India with no intervention from Indian authorities), illegal in the USA. It has wide ramifications if they win I would think that Gibson has very good grounds for escalating this to the highest level in US politics. Then maybe some sanity will return.

Tell me if I am wrong!!


Tony

[SoundPerf]

One thing I've learned to count on from "progressives' is they resort to name-calling and accusations of "crazy" when anyone challenges their values/beliefs.

Another thing I've learned to count on from them is a constant onslaught of straw-man "arguments. Logicians will know what that means. Posers will spew more vitriolic insults, thus revealing themselves as "progressives".

Nick, you called this exactly correct. And the reason why reasonable debate has been stifled in this country. In fact it's by plan. The next step will be for someone to step in and stop the debate becuase it's going to probably spiral into the dumper.

After the 2008 election, I saw quite clearly that my battle was with the republican party as much as it was with the opposition. This seems to be one the biggest difference. I will be honest enough to admit to being deceived. I don't see that one bit from the opposite side. Mainly due to the fact that everything that looks like a mistake by the progressives is actually done completely by plan. Whether or not those that vote for that agenda actually realize it or not is another question. Most seem to just have a lot of emotion invested in what they see as, or have been told is a just cause.

Now it's probably time I stop posting before it gets all "crazy".

[fritferret]

Well the affidavit filed(Posted below) does indeed describe fingerboard blanks. If US F&W are correct then millions of guitars, mandolins, violins, you name it, are now illegal.. We are all stuffed and India is about to loose a significant export trade. Has all Indian ebony fingerboard blanks been exported using the incorrect tariff code?.. This really is a terrible mess, and the more publicity Gibson gets from this the better.. This crazy madness has to stop. Thankfully Gibson has the resources to defend itself publically and legally.

It is interesting to note that the Lacey Act amendments were introduced to stop illegally logged timber from being imported into the US. This wood was not illegally logged, there is nothing in the affidavit that claims the wood was illegally logged.(probably why they have not filed any charges yet) Also interesting to note, quoted from the US F&W web site...

"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the premier government agency dedicated to the conservation, protection, and enhancement of fish, wildlife and plants, and their habitats. "

This has nothing to do with conservation or protection of Indian Ebony and Rosewood. It is basically a legal trade dispute and should be submitted to the WTO by Indian govt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Disput ... ement_Body

For this action to be treated with such force here in the US by US officials should not be tolerated and dealt with publicly.. What US F&W are effectively doing is to make a practice that has been going on for 30 odd years (i.e export of Indian Ebony and Rosewood from India with no intervention from Indian authorities), illegal in the USA. It has wide ramifications if they win I would think that Gibson has very good grounds for escalating this to the highest level in US politics. Then maybe some sanity will return.


Tony

did you read the affidavit all the way through? it pretty clearly says that given the significance of the problems found w/ the gibson imports, that the gov is seeking permission to search gibson's properties for evidence. one of the reasons the affidavit says the gov is so suspicious is because the kind of mistakes they found w/ the shipments don't appear to be mistakes, but rather look intentional. for example, the affidavit metnions a shipment of wood that would have otherwise been illegal to export were falsely describe and falsely coded to look like a shipment of wood that could be legally exported.

still sound to me like the doj is doing its job. also, the doj has said that it's not interested in yours or anyone elses guitars. they're only interested in corps that are intentionally breaking the law. or at least that's my reading of it. the illegal logging business has more to do w/ the 2009 raid, i think. and that wood has to do w/ madagascar, not india.

[kevster]

Now it's probably time I stop posting before it gets all "crazy".

Yeah, that's where I'm at too.

[10thTx]

As I understand it, from the affidavit:

Pg 4 #10 It looks like wood larger than 6mm thick is illegal to export/import.

Pg 8 #31 It looks like the focal point of the alledged crime that Gibson got wood that was 10mm thick.

So all of this is about a 4mm difference in wood?

I would rather have my tax dollars go into stopping the illegal aliens and illegal drugs pouring across our borders. This is an issue of priorities.

Does anyone believe that 4mm difference in thickness of wood is going to erode the quality of life in this country?


With respect, 10thtx

[Structo]

At least nobody has invoked Hitler into their argument yet.

I read the affidavit and it appears from that, if it is true, Gibson has tried to intentionally deceive customs by falsely cataloging invoices with different descriptions.

Kind of weird that it is OK to import wood that is < 6mm but if it is >10mm it is illegal.

Or is it that all Indian ebony and rosewood is illegal to import.

Why do they always need so many pages to say simple things?
31 pages to say the wood is illegal.
Lawyers?