Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

[Structo]

Henry says it's because of Indian law that the DOJ is interpreting.
He claims the Indian government is fine with exporting the wood.

So the DOJ claims that the Indians must perform work on the wood.

So who cut the trees down, milled them, dried them and got it ready for export.

Now with the Lacey act and CITES, you are responsible for the wood on your own guitar and can be subject to fines and seizure.

What a bunch of crap.

Henry said in one interview that one of the agents told him he would be better off moving manufacturing to Madagascar.

Really? Move several hundred jobs over seas?

What is this country doing?
Or more aptly, what is this government doing?

[qtone]

Henry says it's because of Indian law that the DOJ is interpreting.
He claims the Indian government is fine with exporting the wood.

So the DOJ claims that the Indians must perform work on the wood.

So who cut the trees down, milled them, dried them and got it ready for export.

Now with the Lacey act and CITES, you are responsible for the wood on your own guitar and can be subject to fines and seizure.

What a bunch of crap.

Henry said in one interview that one of the agents told him he would be better off moving manufacturing to Madagascar.

Really? Move several hundred jobs over seas?

What is this country doing?
Or more aptly, what is this government doing?

Exactly, it is shameful. Does anyone here feel duped cause I sure do.
I voted for hope and change and now I just hope to have change by the end of the week..

I invite everyone to watch Kevin Smiths new film Red State.
it deals with the ATF.

Its one thing for Americans to try and put one another out of business over greed and just wanting to be the next popular deal which is illegal but for the Government to do it and too its own people something is real real wrong with that picture....

Ive seen the world from both sides now. I wonder when people will start fighting back what will these thugs do then ?

Last time I checked we outnumber them by the thousands and sooner or later it will be hell on the streets.

Everyone is too dummed down to stand up and fight them...
The mindset is we would get the juice if we did.

Id rather die fighting them then to let them just roll us over and
plow us to death..

[fritferret]

i don't want to get argumentative, but what part of the story is confusing? the doj says it has evidence that gibson knowingly purchase illegally harvested wood and then tried to make it look like they legally bought legally harvested wood. that's criminal. the doj has also they don't about individual guitar owners. they're after corps that are sustaining this illegal market.

henry is cleary trying to appeal to conservatives who are already suspicious of gov. involvement in anything and that's precisely the angle all the convervative news outlets are taking. this whole if gibson, who's next thing is silly. no one is next unless you're a corp engaging in the same illegal behavior.

the whole indian finishing thing is only one part of the problem and given the other aspects of what we know about the case, it's a really minor part. the heart of the case is that gibson allegedly knowling engaged in illegal activites and then tried to cover it up. the doj claims to have discovered gibson emails supporting this.

i love gibson anf guitar generally, but if i knowingly break the law then try to cover it up and get caught, then i'm in trouble. gibson should be held to the same standard. do business legally. we all see what happens, but i'm certainly not just going to take gibson's word just because it's gibson or just because the doj isn't lining up interviews like henry is. time will tell.

[butwhatif]

I don't think AG is the place to vent on this, but, if you want to blame people in the government for what's goin on u r missin it. The big money folks that practically own it all are using their $ to advance legislation, political agenda, and bribe and lobby -in many facets of the us economy. A lot of this stuff has been a secret society for years, but some has been exposed more recently, and it's not good for anyone but the few top percent. If you had a few billion in manufacturing overseas would you want competition in your market here, in your own backyard? They would love to see a total collapse of regulation, competition, and government intervention into their game. The sec is already infiltrated, as well many other departments- it's a game we have fewer and fewer cards in---just sayin

[SoundPerf]

I thought suspicion of goverment was the basic foundation of this country. To imply that only conservatives are easily tweaked by anti-govt. concerns is disheartning.

The same people who "boo hoo, hoo'ed" the Patriot Act are now saying the same things that were said in defense of the Patriot Act. Something along the lines of "you only have to worry, if you do something wrong".

Wake up people. If we continue down this divided road all is lost.

P.S. Also, last time I checked nobody has been convicted of anything. They barely know what the exact charges are.

[fritferret]

I thought suspicion of goverment was the basic foundation of this country. To imply that only conservatives are easily tweaked by anti-govt. concerns is disheartning.

The same people who "boo hoo, hoo'ed" the Patriot Act are now saying the same things that were said in defense of the Patriot Act. Something along the lines of "you only have to worry, if you do something wrong".

Wake up people. If we continue down this divided road all is lost.

P.S. Also, last time I checked nobody has been convicted of anything. They barely know what the exact charges are.

i don't know what you're talking about. america wasn't founded on suspicion of government. if we're going to use such wildly vague terms, it would be close to the truth to say that american was founded in opposition to british tyranny. it wasn't suspicion of tyranny; the tyranny was self-evident. and re: anti-gov sentiments, if by "anti-gov" you mean an aversion to anything not considered small givernment, then yes that's a pretty basic conservative tenant. the raids are being cast as gov run amuck or putting it's hands on things it shouldn't. that plays into a certain conservative outlook. that's not to say non conservatives can't be upset about this, too, but there's a reason henry is doing so many interviews w/ so many conservative news outlets. that's not a coincidence. the coverage this story has gotten is alomst exclusively from conservative outlets. google it. only in the last day or so has the story been covered by a few non-partisan outlets.

i don't understand your patriot act argument. the pat act has nothing in common w/ this, directly or indirectly.

i do agree w/ your last line. gibson hasn't been conviceted of anything. they not even been charged. and the doj isn't holding any press conferences disclosing the details of their case. nor should we expect them to. that's not what the doj does. their case is for court not gossip media.

the truth will come out eventually. until then, we just have to sit back and watch. actually, this will probably require sitting back and reading.

[kevster]

I thought suspicion of goverment was the basic foundation of this country. To imply that only conservatives are easily tweaked by anti-govt. concerns is disheartning.

The same people who "boo hoo, hoo'ed" the Patriot Act are now saying the same things that were said in defense of the Patriot Act. Something along the lines of "you only have to worry, if you do something wrong".

Wake up people. If we continue down this divided road all is lost.

P.S. Also, last time I checked nobody has been convicted of anything. They barely know what the exact charges are.

You are absolutely right about the founders suspicion of government, but that isn't fully evident without reading the Federalist Papers. As a matter of fact, they US government took two tries because they were too cautious (the first time) to function properly. They did not want the US to become like a long succession of European governments and knew that a government unaccountable to its citizens would become corrupt and self-perpetuating... And they were right. The politicians from both parties just voted to raise the debt limit but not shrink CURRENT government.

Love her or hate her, Sarah Palin broached a subject that most have been reluctant to address, about BOTH parties being a problem ("crony capitalism" was her phrase, but THAT only scratches the surface). Both parties are the problem in more ways than one, and the dysfunction that is inherent in modern government is comprised of both the ELECTED officials and the BUREAUCRAT employees. The self-interests are for government rather than the people.

And that's how I see it. The Gibson event is just a symptom. We enforce laws like this, but we don't secure the borders which could be a serious security threat. We have government law enforcement using swat team tactics to enter the homes of families... All there are symptoms.

And that's why I play guitar.

[fritferret]

no, that's right, either. i've read the federalist papers. all of them at least once. to say the "suspicion of government" thing is a myopic reading. there is, however, an obvious suspicion of tyranny. governmental tyranny and government simply--these are not the same thing.

[NickC]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Those that crave power can never have enough; they will always seek more and more.

That which governs least, governs best.

[CHIP]

Here's what the real problem with this whole scenerio ;
Why is our DOJ interpreting the laws of other countries and then putting the hammer down on it's own citizens? Don't they have more important things to worry about?
You guys that want to defend this action and portray the outrage as right wing hysterics are barking up the wrong tree.no pun intended.

This administration is just looking for ways to slam companies that don't fit under their agenda.

Union money elects these people. The majority of the new jobs that are being created by this administration are unionized government jobs.
Their memo to the DOJ is, look for something to find that's illegal ,[interpret other countries laws if you have to],in these non union shops and make life miserable for them.
One of steps to destroy private enterprise.

[heisthl]

The majority of the new jobs that are being created by this administration are unionized government jobs

I listen to both sides of the political spectrum and have yet to hear anyone point out that when the government hires someone it must take at least 8 non government worker's taxes to cover their salary, pension and health benefits. i.e. 1000 government jobs negates the taxes of 8,000 private sector workers.

Don't get me started on why things get more expensive when other peoples money is being spent.

[Deric]

Isn't this an amp forum?

[SoundPerf]

Isn't this an amp forum?

Yes it is. But this stuff is extremely important and I haven't seen anyone go beyond strong debate. Which BTW, is a great testament to the maturity of this board. The PC attitudes have done nothing but serve to perpetuate the problem.

I suppose it's going to get old and run in circles, because unfortunetely the only thing reasonable people can do right now is gather information and make an imformed vote down the road.

But, I believe it would be better to debate it now than have riots and destruction in the future. We are only a year or so behind our European friends, but catching up (or I should say falling behind) quickly.

[SoundPerf]

no, that's right, either. i've read the federalist papers. all of them at least once. to say the "suspicion of government" thing is a myopic reading. there is, however, an obvious suspicion of tyranny. governmental tyranny and government simply--these are not the same thing.

I believe it's "tyranny" that we are debating here. Maybe a well played "soft tyranny", but tyranny just the same. The fact that the same people who marched and protested against the goverment about the Patriot Act and all the other issues regarding the battle against terrorism are the ones insisting that there's nothing to worry about with the present administration, DOJ and everything else that's going on. That was my point.

[SoundPerf]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Those that crave power can never have enough; they will always seek more and more.

That which governs least, governs best.

Hallelujah!