The Sims Are Coming! The Sims Are Coming!

[The Telenator]

Well, this topic certainly isn't about tube amps, so I put it here, right or wrong. Or maybe it is about tube amps.

I wouldn't have much idea how to search and discover if this has been talked about before, as any search with sims pulls up only speaker sims and such here for amp testing. I did find one short remark that I liked -- a member named "overtone" stated that "amp sims don't have any balls", which at least used to be the general rule.

My question is simple. More and more really good amp sims are being offered every day, and the whole IR thing with cabs has really taken off. I got involved with amp sims through using a DAW and doing recordings. To my ears, 95% or more sound dreadful, but I recently found one company called Scuffham that makes a set of three amps in a combination with IR cabs and some modest mod effects on-board. I couldn't believe it, but all three amps sound very good, with two of them being as good as any hardware amps I've ever heard or recorded -- yes, as good or better than even some Dumbles and many other boutique amps. These have sag control, all sorts of frequency boosts and cuts, great overall control. I've decided to use them. In fact, I'm in the process of finishing a 6-tune instrumental EP-sized release that features them. I wouldn't have believed it a year ago, but this CD may have NO real amps on it.

Now, I've been a hardware amp fanatic for years and years and still am. I'm much like the lot of you, yet I have little or no time to build. I'm not switching over completely, yet I hear about more players all the time who are or have. I'm not involved with these just 'cause my back is angry with me because I still lug around 40 to 90 pounds of amp all the time. And I have no financial or otherwise relationship with Scuffhams amps, aside from the fact I purchased his product for the full price of $75US and have started a discussion with owner Mike (about things just like I'm asking you amp specialists right now!).

My question or questions are the obvious ones. Assuming these keep getting better and can do all or more than your average tube amp, what does the future hold? Will the tube amp market dwindle? Will it in the end only be boutique -- just you guys making special orders? Will we see tube makers start going out of business again? What are your opinions on this whole area? What do you see for the future? Where is this going?

Let me add one last thing before anyone starts what I used to say, the "they all suck" belief: Mike Scuffham worked for Marshall Amps as a major designer, most well-known there for his Marshall MP-1 (hardware) preamp. It is and was very well-received and popular. He began his own deal by modeling the modest 12AX7 (actually, I think ECC83 over there). I use mainly The Duke, a Fender onwards to Dumble type, and the Stealer, a Park Amp, JTM-45 onwards through perhaps Marshall JCM900 with some extra parameters thrown in (not always strictly Marshall in the tone stack). Kindly suspend judgment for a minute, if you have not heard these, and trust me when I say they sound exceptionally good, whether recorded in a DAW or run as flat as humanly possible, sans colouration, into real speaker cabs. These two sims have been blowing my mind for over two weeks of heavy trials. I've been a successful working professional for some 40 years now and have tried everything at some point; I'm very hard to impress!

So . . . what say you? Make predictions, draw conclusions, think about the young musicians coming on board, having to choose 20 years from now. You've all seen how the hardware modelers have finally been accepted and have taken off. Even Fender has that Mustang line of them now. What of all this?

[katopan]

They are getting better. I know clips are not like hearing or playing it for real, but we all judge amp builds based on posted clips all the time. So I was watching some of the NAMM YouTube clips and there was a short demo of the Roland GR-55. Sounded like a hell of a step up from the ME-50 I sold off years ago. Not jaw dropping, but my eye brows certainly raised. And that's from a company that's not a high quality specialist like what you're describing.

[stelligan]

I own a GR-55 and have some pretty convincing patches for guitar & amp. Tele into a tweed amp, Les Paul into Marhall for example. Still doesn't feel like a killer tube amp, but for versatility and stage footprint - hard to beat. I did my first gig ever without a guitar amp last week. The audience could not have cared less that there wasn't a tube amp there. For me - it was so-so. Other than the fact I pretended to be a sax section, Hammond organ, flute, harmonica, Wurlitzer electric piano.......

[NickC]

I haven't come across a guitar amp sim that has the "feel" of a real amp. There are some analog, solid-state circuits that are very close to the feel and sound of a good tube amp. The Fractal Audio box sounds convincing, but I've not had to opportunity to test the feel-factor yet.

[Structo]

Probably in 50 years or sooner tube amps will be relics of the past.

I'm sure performing pro musicians will be using all digital stuff by then.

Sad to say that tube electronics is a dying art but I think it is true.

[Zippy]

So . . . what say you? Make predictions, draw conclusions, think about the young musicians coming on board, having to choose 20 years from now. You've all seen how the hardware modelers have finally been accepted and have taken off. Even Fender has that Mustang line of them now. What of all this?

Keep your expectations low enough and you'll never be disappointed.

P.S. Please decode your acronyms to a shared language.

[VacuumVoodoo]

I drove an Formula-1 in a simulator, it was fun but not sensational.
Then I drove a real one on track at one of those "a day at the race track" PR events.
I'm telling you guys and dolls, no simulation can ever recreate the sensation of traveling at close to 200mph..... while being fully aware that your balls are only 4 inches above the asphalt... once you realize this they'll quickly crawl up to your arm pits. Now simulate this!

[marcoloco961]

Why is it all the posts bragging about modeling come WITHOUT a sound clip? No tubz, No likey!


Just one clip please.

[bcmatt]

I have a certain addiction, and I'm not even exaggerating. I am actually quite concerned about how I will be able to function in life if I am not able to boost my economic status to accommodate it in the coming decades. It might be possible to kick it eventually, but even a couple days without my fix makes me quite aggravated and craving what I need.

And I what I need is to play a good tube amp. It is a certain feel thing combined with being able to hear it reacting to my guitar in my hands. Listening to good music and good tone is not enough for me. I need to feel it. I don't know what is going on and what it is releasing chemically into my system, but I REALLY crave it. I notice that turning down the amp too much doesn't satisfy either...which is where I fear the problems will arise...especially if I ever want children.

Anyways, I don't know if amp sims will ever satisfy what these tube amps seem to be able to. Will they ever feel right? Is there some that do already? I have barely tried any amp sims of note, so I can't answer that.

I suppose that the feel of a tube amp is something that will not be missed once it is gone for a while and the people that remembered it have died out. Eventually, some sort of satisfying tone will only be required to get the job done, and people will hopefully no longer suffer with my same addiction.

[stelligan]

The Eleven rack had some input resistance stuff going on that was touted to help the feel and response of the models. "True-z" I think it was called. I purchased one with high hopes - I returned it promptly. It did not butter my biscuit....

[Reeltarded]

I have been told I am the only person to ever have played a Line6 Flextone II where the amp sounded like a real amp. I did a whole record of guitars in hotel rooms with a Fearn mic amp, a Purple 76, and a Flextone II direct.

It sounds like an amp up until you hear me play through an amp.

The kidney thing rocks as a preamp into tube power sections, just like any three distortion units and two eqs would. heh

[Jana]

I'm glad I'm old--well I'm not really really old but I am on the downhill slide towards the last wagon train ride. But I'm glad I got to grow up in the heyday of tube amps, learned to play on them, listened to music that was analog from start to finish and have had the experience of what that music sounds like both listening to it and playing it.

I have played some modeling amps and some of them do a really good job of capturing a snapshot of the sounds. But, there is something missing that, so far, only a real tube amp can deliver. I suppose this is all "old hippie" talk but there is a certain feeling I feel in my fingers when I am plugged into a good tube amp. I feel it in my hands and my body. It doesn't have to be loud either, I am not talking about sheer volume. It can be at apartment levels but it is still there. Modelers seem to do everything right except they don't have a soul.

Will tube amps go away? Probably. The trend is there. As more kids grow up listening to digitally processed music that is both created and reproduced digitally, they will not know what that old fashioned analog stuff really was other than past history. If they grow up learning to play guitar on a modeling amp, that is what they will know. Why hassle with all that finicky old fashioned stuff that is heavy and expensive when everything can be in a little box? That's the question they will ask. We know what the answer will be for most.

I'm glad I'm old--bury me with my strat and a marshall and I'm good to go.

[marcoloco961]

I think that pretty well sums it up. The words "feel" and "soul" seem to keep coming up. I guess it's not so much a sound as it is the feeling that you get when you are playing through a good ole tube amp. I hope you are wrong Jana when you say people will eventually forget tube amps for a sim. I think music would suffer without the emotion one can put into it with the right equipment.

I just keep thinking about how you can put a great guitar and amp into the wrong person's hands and get a very unpleasant sound, yet someone else can pick up that same guitar and make it sing. I think players who play without much soul or feeling will probably opt for a sim, but the player who can put their emotions into music will hopefully always appreciate the feel only a tube amp can offer.

I personally have two different bass rigs I use, one is tube pre into SS power and the other total SS. I use the SS in smaller settings simply to save space. I am never completely happy with my sound when playing through the SS, and it is a Ampeg. My drummer heard the tube amp the first time and said "don't ever bring the other amp again"...

[rsalinger]

A wise man (on this forum) once said...

"Margarine has been around for 200 years... and it still ain't butter!"
...in the end, some things just can´t be replaced.

[NickC]

The Eleven rack had some input resistance stuff going on that was touted to help the feel and response of the models. "True-z" I think it was called. I purchased one with high hopes - I returned it promptly. It did not butter my biscuit....

I showed up at the studio with a bunch of gear for a session. I was informed (by the guy paying the bill) I'd be plugged into the Eleven rack box. I tried politely to get the producer to let me use one of the amps, and pedal board, but he wasn't having it. It was awful. I played the session, the producer was satisfied, I got paid. But, to this day, I don't like the guitar tone on that track. The Digi people can say whatever they like in their marketing blurbs, but the "feel" of that box ain't happening at all.