A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

[JamesHealey]

Just got back from a gig yes it's 8pm and im back already, all day event thingy.

The sound guy was like, that amp is loud although it's not really the problem of it being too loud it's more that it cuts like a knife and it's really hard to put into the mix without it overpowering everything else..

Well I guess thats what a Trainwreck was designed to do really, cut through..

Anyone else have similar experiences, what kind of stuff are people doing to bring the volume down? Im just using a 1x12 and 6V6's which I guess is the most natural way to bring the volume down..

I'm considering an attenuator though, although Im not really that keen on what they do to the tone.

How about a blanket over the mic/cab? to reduce the sound FOH? anyone tried that?

[Cliff Schecht]

I tried my Express with 6V6's at practice to cut down on volume. I use a 1x12 as well. It really doesn't make the thing any quieter, it just doesn't clean up as well and has a different sound than the EL34's. A blanket isn't going to make it much quieter either, you're just going to kill the sound of the amp!

You need to look into building an AirBrake style attenuator. I did mine with just a 25 ohm resistor to ground on the input and a 22 Ohm rheostat in series with the output (the "bedroom volume" setting on a real version). This design does a great job of maintaining your amps sound while cutting down on the dB's. I run mine at about 30-50% depending on where I am playing and find that this is enough attenuation for all of my needs. Like you said, the amp cuts through like nothing else and so you'll probably find yourself cutting down quite a bit more than you usually would want to, but it's a necessary evil if you want to be fair to your bandmates. You lose some of that awesome sustain as well if you cut down too low, but there is a happy medium between a great lead tone and a "useful" volume that will come with experimenting.

[dartanion]

VVR is a great solution.

Also, tell the sound guy to buy a clue. Anyone worth their salt can make it work.

[JamesHealey]

I found the volume change between EL34 and 6V6 noticeable the amp deffinately feels to have less punch and authority with 6V6's.

The mid range is less agressive and the top is smoother the tonal change is more significant than the volume change for sure.

I'm just about managing to get a useable volume with 6v6s and 1x12 cab at most gigs we're playing, it's just a tad on the loud side for the smaller clubs we're playing.. but it's not unmanagable.

[selloutrr]

Sounds like the sound guy sucks!
Honestly it's his job to make it fit.
If it was a volume issue and you didn't turn down then it's your bad
but tonally that all on his end.
He could have easily rolled off you highs or boosted the rhytme sections lows a bump to seat you in the mix.

If he is worth half a shit he should ecstatic to have a guitar that doesn't muddy up the low mids.

Sorry
as a sound guy I find stupidity to be frustrating!

Even on a mackie that amp should have made the mix
that is why chan strips have EQ.

Next time you see him tell him to practice the line... " would you like fries with that?"

[Allynmey]

I thought "cutting through" was the best trait of a 'wreck!

[strat_addict]

Sounds like the sound guy sucks!
Honestly it's his job to make it fit.
If it was a volume issue and you didn't turn down then it's your bad
but tonally that all on his end.
He could have easily rolled off you highs or boosted the rhytme sections lows a bump to seat you in the mix.

If he is worth half a shit he should ecstatic to have a guitar that doesn't muddy up the low mids.

Sorry
as a sound guy I find stupidity to be frustrating!

Even on a mackie that amp should have made the mix
that is why chan strips have EQ.

Next time you see him tell him to practice the line... " would you like fries with that?"

Sometimes its just impossible to make something that loud fit into the mix. When I play at my church, the entire band is at about 80db, trying to make a 120db guitar signal fit in the mix is just impossible. Period. The sound guy does the best job he can do with the equipment provided to him, if you push the band too high, you will get feedback with the microphones. There's obviously some reason why he couldn't make it work. My advice, as someone said before, is to build or buy a TW Airbrake clone. Dr. Z makes one if you don't want to build it yourself.

[selloutrr]

Feedback?

Don't put the pa behind the microphone of point the cone to capsule
insert an EQ cut the freq that feeds back and keep boosting.

"If you refused to turn down that is your bad! If he couldn't mix you in he is not a sound guy!."

build an airbrake buy a powersoak or stop being "that guitar player" and think of the sound as a whole not as a "ME"

honestly from a sound point of view there are so many things wrong with this post. I wish musicians and sound guys all had to attend a class called " the big picture and how I fit in"

[jaysg]

I found the volume change between EL34 and 6V6 noticeable the amp deffinately feels to have less punch and authority with 6V6's.

Real 6V6s or the JJs? I ask because they might sound more EL-34-ish.

As Darin said, VVR is the answer.

[selloutrr]

Another solution!

You can keep your trainwreck 100% how it currently is and run it balls out! Use an isocab. Demeter makes a couple models or build your own. I have plans for nice iso cab. They are used a lot more then you might think fir live sound.

Partly to control volume on the stage and imagining in the house as well as isolating the signal from other instruments. I'm sure you have been to at least one concert and though woah that guitar sounds huge and looked to see several Marshall or high gain stacks yet you didn't feel your flesh getting ripped off in the first ten rows. Prob dummy cabs the real amp was an isocab.

[dartanion]

Screw the iso cab! I need to feel my amp and be able to interact with it on stage. Iso cabs mess that up in a big way. Making it all work is a big picture thing, so it's player and sound guy. Most the time it's the friggin' Jr. Green Bean sound dude that can't get the house mix right, so it's all the guitarist's fault for using an amp that isn't a Muddy Booger Quadruple Rectum Fryer that washes into the bass. Smack 'em upside the head and learn 'em how to get it right.

[paulster]

Two words: Faustine Phantom!

[Andy Le Blanc]

I run sound.... key board players and guitar players are always fa-tards with volume.

And I play guitar...... jeez..... that would make me...? what?....

An iso cab is a great solution that poses another set of issues.

You need to EQ the the hell out of it, and then deal with the carved up result.
but it will give you control.

Another way to do it is to turn the amp around, still mic the front.
Put it behind some cases so it don't frig up FOH.

Now the real issue is how many watts the FOH has, if the tech has enough
power its not a problem, he'll bury you, and/or put you thru everyone else's monitors
let them bitch you out, no need to babysit the whinny little butt lick with
his home made turd, If the guitar player really wants to frigg up the gig
for the entire band and never get a paying gig at the venue again,
by all means ......

If your little POS forces the tech to push the Db at the console over a certain point,
your gone, the sound man is god, it really is move it or lose it.

you really only need about 1/16 watt, let the system do its job.

insisting that your instrument dictates the FOH and the venues presentation
only proves that you are a amateur act, and if that continues beyond one
or two gigs with more than one presenter, you will lose gigs.

I love playing loud guitar too, don't get me wrong, but I also run sound.
With modern sound reinforcement you don't really need an amp.
Just a good sounding pre and a DI. The sound guys job is really to let you
be who you are, not really my job to get into pissing matches with guitar
players, it's also not my job to make you sound good, That's your job.
Ill grab a descent mix in the head phones and present it around
the loud amp and let the audience's reaction tell the performers they suck.

[selloutrr]

You are nicer then me I'll get the Talkback mic and tell you to turn the fuck down.
My job is to make the fans Want to see hear and buy the band. I have zero issue with using mute buttons! Cross me and I might take a monitor solo at 1.6khz during your dynamic finger shred excersize.

When I played bass my setup was stupied large but my stage volume was next to nothing. I could pump 1200watts threw each of 4 svt cabs but I took the direct out and used the amp only to fill in. That gave the PA the image and kept the audience the sound guy and the band mates happy!

Keep in mind no musician is special on talent alone. You are a product and you are selling that product and in the middle down pond those waters are full of other hungry bands and players willing to do it twice as good and for as little or less then you! If you want to get to the top it's best you make compromises and pick your battles if your "sound" requires loud pick your venue better suited for loud. But understand there is an SPL rating you can be fined if you cross!

Note! All forms of volume attenuation and iso cabs will change the way you get "interaction" from your amp. As will the room you are playing it in.

A nice isocab doesn't require shit loads of eq if you know which freq to focus on!

The two fastest ways to ruin a mix
1 over eq ( phase shifts everytime you turn the knob )
2 over compression. The more you squish the more noise you add to the system. Not to mention the loss of life, but that is a personal choice.

[Richie]

i'm sure way too many people here, have had the same thing happen.
Alot of things come into play. Not just the sound guy, but his equipment he has to use. Size of venue or club. this could go on and on.
But even knowing that, if things are mic'd and the sound guy has the best equip, but no experience,he may make a great band sound ..not so great.
You could have an experienced sound guy, make the great band,still sound great with even less equipment.
If the band sucks, then no one can make them sound good..

Sometimes its just impossible to make something that loud fit into the mix. When I play at my church, the entire band is at about 80db, trying to make a 120db guitar signal fit in the mix is just impossible. Period

If you can make a entire band 80db level your a magician.

unamplified instruments can be over 80db, or a cymbal crash.
I built an express with a VVR ,and used 6v6s for a church player,and he says it works perfect for his church.

Even Dana's LiL' Devil might not work in a church..

So i know where your coming from.

The sound guys job is really to let you
be who you are, not really my job to get into pissing matches with guitar
players, it's also not my job to make you sound good, That's your job.

Thats true, you can't fix a band that just doesn't sound good. But it is your job to make the band sound good in a mix. Might be painful to listen to sometimes. I do know what you are getting at though.

I think what some are getting at is, sometimes its the frequency. Some amps suck live, and you can't make something sound good,if it doesn't.
if the guy can play great, but can't dial in his amp to sound good, then their isn't a control on the board that will correct that.
Some amps, you can see the guys fingers move on the neck, but the amp is mush, and can't hear a single note. Other instruments come into play too, stage volume etc. Its like a curtain, some things can't get through past the front of the stage. Usually though, if you have a good sound guy,he knows what to do.

Yeah, the Wrecks cut through live, a great amp to use live. I've seen some say though, they aren't loud enough! So??? you can't please everyone.

You are nicer then me I'll get the Talkback mic and tell you to turn the fuck down.
My job is to make the fans Want to see hear and buy the band. I have zero issue with using mute buttons! Cross me and I might take a monitor solo at 1.6khz during your dynamic finger shred excersize.

MAIN RULE OF BAND.."DON'T PISS OFF THE SOUND GUY"