A Trainwreck, Sound Engineers worst nightmare?

[jaysg]

Do not piss off the sound man, period.
Even if he is an idiot!

He can make you suffer in unspeakable ways......

[Structo]

BAWAHAWAHAWAHAWA!

[Andy Le Blanc]

put some more talent in the monitor, will ya...

[dark]

If the amp was cutting through too much (from the sound man's perspective) put the mic off axis, like way off to the edge of the speaker cone. That right there can make more of a difference out front of the PA than even the bright switches on the amp. The difference between an SM57 centered vs way off to the edge is NIGHT and DAY.

I've had gigs were the PA was so bright that I miked my 4x12 with the mic right under the last L in "Marshall" (small logo) which is barely on the edge of the cone. That said, I recently did a gig where with the mic dead center on the cone it was too dark out front (with the board channel flat) so it really depends on the PA. That was with EL34s and the full bright switch position. Still I run two 18' cords in series, a THD hotplate, and a few layers or felt over the fronts of my Scumbacks under the thick basketweave cloth ALL of which darken things up for sure.

I find with a small 1x12 the bass is so limited that the treble needs to be cut even more to balance the spectrum. I run 2 to 4 layers of felt over my M75s, those that are in 1x12s that is. It seems the less bass you have the more the treble get's out of balance and needs to be cut somehow even more.

Also a fairly fat sounding mic like a Sennheise e906 helps, and also I find 6V6s in a wreck as thinner sounding the EL34s so I never use them.

Also for the bright cap to be pleasing you need the amp volume up at least half way with most potentiometers that is. Any lower than that and the bright cap takes over.

Speaking of a blanket over the cab. I've done quite a few gigs where I ran a very small sealed back 1x12 at the front corner of the stage on a bar stool aimed back at me at an angle. Then I also run a 4x12 behind me miced with a Sennheiser e906, put a Tuki padded cover over the cab and left on all night. The flat profile mic really helps with this. Anyway I can hear myself with plenty of articulation via the 1x12, and I still hear some deep thump from the covered up 4x12 so it still sounds fat on stage. With this setup there is barely any forward bleed and it still sounds like a 4x12 out front. This is with a 16 ohm 1x12 in parallel with the 4x12, which with the somewhat inefficient small 1x12 I can get away with this setup only using about 4db of attenuation and all speakers M75 Scumbacks. I should also mention I typically prefer a THD hotplate, though I'm on the list for a Phantom. I owned a Dr. Z airbrake and never liked it at all with my wreck, too bright and shrill. The THD darkens the tone a tad and that works just fine, as long as I don't go down passed -8 which I almost never need to do.

Speaking of soundman I do plenty of gigs using one of my clones and through my own PA system. My PA has a total of just 4x12s for FOH though plenty of clean power. Two EV 1x12 SX300s for top cabs (with 1200 watts on them) and two Danley single 12 TH-mini subs (with 2500 watts on the pair). This PA easily allows me to run my Trainwreck clones in the sweet spot and still mic them though FOH, along with some nice fat drums, and of course vocals going over top all that! That said in really small rooms where folks may be sitting really close I use the padded cover trick I mentioned earlier. On larger stages I can still run -4 on the THD but skip the padded cover trick all together.

I also agree that if you have a powerful drummer a Wreck on a 1x12 only goes so far. It does depend on the speaker though. I can say that for comparison sake that with old G12Ms in a 4x12 I found that a Liverpool was not even enough with a strong drummer, at least for the clean tones and that's with a 4x12. I could see how on a single 12 an Express might not even need any attenuation if you have a heavy handed drummer, and a lower efficiency speaker. G12M speakers (my fave) are a bit less efficient than alot of other speakers, and they are even a tad quieter than M75 Scumback recreations which though they are obviously similar sounding seem a little louder. Also the OT in an Express can make a big difference. I find the Pacific 6.6k OT makes for a quieter and slightly darker amp. Heck my original with EL34s is quieter than a typical 5.2k Ceriatone is with little 6v6s!

Sorry for the long post, I'm a "sound man" also...

Great post!

Dark

Rock on!

[Roe]

my drummer liked the express since it wasn't as loud as my plexis

[lions den]

I use my Express clone at church, placed behind 2 2X4 plexiglass pieces held together by a piano hinge, and using a HO Attenuator. This allows you to let the amp breathe a bit, without taking people's heads off. It sends the volume up and spreads it out so you actually end up with a bigger sound from the player perspective, although less direct. Haven't been asked to turn down yet

[Roe]

the first time I used my express was a really, really small gig. the audience looked scared during the show but were almost ecstatic afterwards. I continued to use it a small gigs. it works great. has great cut and response. its very fun to play (if you are sober). its often perceived as louder than it really is because of all of the brightness and aggression. people always say the guitar is loud anyway. the band gets used to it

[andrew4566]

If it's Rock it supposed to be loud especially the guitar...

The best tone is the Amp turned up where it is supposed to be. Anything the "sound guy" does to the guitar in the mix is a compromise and needs to be minimized accept in venues where the amp is not loud enough.

If you are playing venues that are too small for the express or other fantastic sounding tube guitar amp change your play list!...learn some jazz or something.... attenuators and the like are for neighbors and bandmates during long practice sessions.

Sound guys are often control freaks ...they know they can make you sound better than you can... and they start by telling you your amp is too loud?...seriously anyone saying that has no idea how to make your guitar sound better!

To say this makes it all about the guitarist the ME ME ME thing... Can you imagine the sound guy telling the vocalist to sing quieter so they can use the EQ to mix their voice for the benefit of the band!

As far as pissing off the sound guy...what's he gunna do take you out of the mix because your too loud to be in the mix?


those fans who enjoy loud guitar Rock will move to the stage... anyone not enjoying your Trainwreck's volume should adjust it's presence in the mix by getting out of the way!

As far as the church situation attenuation is fine there as the focus of the gathering is not primarily for the music... no offense intended at all but it's not a rock-n roll show.

[selloutrr]

If it's Rock it supposed to be loud especially the guitar...



Sound guys are often control freaks ...they know they can make you sound better than you can... and they start by telling you your amp is too loud?...seriously anyone saying that has no idea how to make your guitar sound better!

hardly a control freak the sound guys goal is to make what your burned out ears think you are hearing sound good to the fans. If a sound guy asks you to turn down don't be a whining bitch and take it personally. Be a team player and take it down a knotch! It's just a show! And you are prob the openning act! A pro headliner already has a rig suited and dialed in for the venue before he or she steps out on stage.


Personally! I promise I can make your guitar sound better then you!
In the studio on the stage in a bar, your back yard a garage I really don't care but yes I know what to listen for which freq to cut or boost with as little effect to phase shift as possible and where to place the mic to get the desired result.
As well as which amp or speaker cab with which tube compliment will give what tone. Most likely your hobby is to play guitar. My job is to make jackass guitar players sound amazing! And fit into the mix with a band!!!

[selloutrr]

Woah! That was mean. Sorry

[paulster]

attenuators and the like are for neighbors and bandmates during long practice sessions.

I've seen a number of touring pros lately who are using attenuators or other means to control their stage volume. These are guys playing arena-sized venues and yet they still feel the need to keep their stage volume under control.

Why's that? So they can be better mixed into the overall band mix to get a coherent sound out front to make them sound better.

Sound guys are often control freaks ...they know they can make you sound better than you can... and they start by telling you your amp is too loud?...seriously anyone saying that has no idea how to make your guitar sound better!

The sound guy has the advantage of being out in the audience at FOH where he can actually hear what the audience are hearing and how good or bad the band sounds 'as a band' rather than just what the guitarist is hearing through his cabinet.

Chances are he'll also know the venue much better, how it sounds empty and how it sounds full, and therefore just how beamy a single cab on stage pointed at the ears of a narrow band will sound compared to the PA which should have been designed to give a nice even spread. If he's big enough to be a touring engineer then he'll have the advantage of taking the desk, PA and outboards with him so it'll be consistent from venue to venue and will likely have had experience of the venues even before loading in.

As far as pissing off the sound guy...what's he gunna do take you out of the mix because your too loud to be in the mix?

If you're really lucky he'll take the time to balance the PA nicely to your stage level and then hit the phase-reverse button on the channel input.

[andrew4566]

All fair points...if the guitarist is the sort who likes to play through a nice modeling amp where the volume knob is a volume knob but ...

...we all know here that the volume knob on a tube guitar amp has very little impact on the actual sound level and in fact to turn it down to the range where it does affect the volume castrates the rich tone. For a sound guy to tell you to play in that range is proof he has no clue how much of the instrument is the amplifier and how it is played. No sound guy can ad back what turning down just removed.

There are tricks drummers will use to reduce their volume for practice but few would ever think of making them actually play for a show like that. but it is considered fine to tell the guitarist to do it?

first off...I am talking about a rock amp in a rock venue...turn up the band! anyone trying to play classic rock in a cozy pub doesn't get it.

that said the best and most consistent sounding 3 piece rock band I have heard played 100 seat rooms with only vocal mic's... no mic on the bass or the guitar ...or the drums with the vocals coming through two JBL's on stands...simplicity..no phase issues bouncing around and the guitar tone was awsome.

As far as attenuators used by pro's in big venues... it just goes to show how acceptable it has become to persecute the guitarist. I bet if they felt they weren't going to piss off the world they would play straight through.

A lifetime of practice, hours of tweaking the guitar, amp, speakers etc. the guitarist knows what makes his or her sound what they want it to be and then when it really matters (on stage with all that it takes to actually get up there) the rest of the world tells you play with one hand tied behind your back now...for the benefit of the mix!

It's amazing really.

I have only done sound for a couple dozen small venue shows and I don't play guitar for anyone but me...I build amps and give them to players I like who play well....in short I am a fan, so turn it up!

[Andy Le Blanc]

that wasn't mean enough....

The "sound man" is stuck between too many obligations

There's the artist, there's the audience, and then there's the venue/presenter.

you either mix the room or you mix the mix.
Mixing the room is ok, sometimes you really have too, but its always a compromise,
it can make your mix suck and lead you down paths towards a bad presentation.

Being forced to do so by one individual who is ignorant of all of the
ramifications involved with the techs position is insulting.

Yes the sound man will be a control monster, and for good reason,
his job is to make the best mix and mix presentation for more than just
the fat headed guitar noobie who thinks that its his amp that makes him sound good.

if you knew how to perform for an audience (which is really why your there)
You wouldn't be making those assumptions, why would you think that
anybody is there to listen to the back line and not your playing?
get a day job and stop wasting everyone's time.

[Bear]

The mix is the band. A guitarist who puts himself ahead of the band is an A-hole. Granted, he might be a compelling A-hole, but he's still an A-hole and it's a barrier to anyone working with him.

[Structo]

Something to be said for the Plexiglas shields a lot of pros use these days in front of their speakers.
I think the first one I saw was at a BB King concert.
His was just two sheets of Plexiglas hinged in the middle.
He could bend his guitar in the right spot and get it to feed back if he wanted.

A lot of times we use these shields in front of the drums because they are just too loud many times if it isn't dimed rock and roll.

I agree about the sound man.
A loud stage volume can turn the FOH muddy because of phasing issues from the two sources of sound.

But, there are just as many sound men with large egos as there are guitarists with egos.
After all, the sound guy is in controll and can make it sound good or make it sound like ass.
Sometimes it is just their lack of experience and other times it is revenge.....