What makes Dumble style amp sound better?

[Tubetastic]

I have to ask: why is it Seasoned Iron if HAD was using, new.

[Kassie]

Kassie,
How seasoned is seasoned enough for your taste? 60's Schumacher?

Ohh I don't know well enough to answer that question. That would require setting up a proper experiment, AB-ing New Fender transformers, Old ones and new ones of different brands (on the flick of a switch, that's a costly business). And then the results should be analyzed and interpreted in a scientific way.. Perhaps major amp builders have the expertise for that. But then there is also taste. Otherwise it's just going with the philosophy of building an authentic clone as much as possible, or just sourcing your own parts. Reading experiences from other forum members.

But my point was that all the different things that Dumble did resulted in that particular amp. But I believe you can also build a great sounding amp with other Iron, maybe even better sounding according to taste.

[CHIP]

I have to ask: why is it Seasoned Iron if HAD was using, new.

AFAIK, Actually HAD didn't use new iron in his new builds, back in the 80's.
For the most part.

[talbany]

I have to ask: why is it Seasoned Iron if HAD was using, new.

AFAIK, Actually HAD didn't use new iron in his new builds, back in the 80's.
For the most part.

AFAIK...Dumble did use NEW Fender Twin iron (in the 80's) apparently from a source he had that was a dealer..There is also evidence on some iron that it was possibly taken from a donor Fender (due to the spliced leads)..Nobody but HAD can tell us for sure how many were new ones at the time of construction...The Music man Iron he used was taken from them when MM went out of business and was new or if you want to call it NOS,depending on when it went in..Either way obviously the 80's amps are seasoned now..
Personally I wouldn't consider seasoned iron a part of why the amps sounded good..I think that is a personal taste thing myself and have built,played and heard many ODS replicas that sounded pretty KILLER with new (or couple years old) iron!!

Tony

[Tubetastic]

I'd read he purchased from Magic Parts so I knew some was new - and the MM ones of course.

[CHIP]

I have to ask: why is it Seasoned Iron if HAD was using, new.

AFAIK, Actually HAD didn't use new iron in his new builds, back in the 80's.
For the most part.

AFAIK...Dumble did use NEW Fender Twin iron (in the 80's) apparently from a source he had that was a dealer..There is also evidence on some iron that it was possibly taken from a donor Fender (due to the spliced leads)..Nobody but HAD can tell us for sure how many were new ones at the time of construction...The Music man Iron he used was taken from them when MM went out of business and was new or if you want to call it NOS,depending on when it went in..Either way obviously the 80's amps are seasoned now..
Personally I wouldn't consider seasoned iron a part of why the amps sounded good..I think that is a personal taste thing myself and have built,played and heard many ODS replicas that sounded pretty KILLER with new (or couple years old) iron!!

Tony

I stand corrected, for the most part.

but, wasn't Robben Fords greenlight amp built in the 80's and the date code on the OT is from around '72?
I've just been under the impression from reading past discussions that HAD was known to use seasoned iron. Maybe I didn't read that.

(maybe alzhiemers starting to set in at 57.) It sucks getting old, doesn't it?

[eniam rognab]

mojo
availability
goop

[talbany]

AFAIK, Actually HAD didn't use new iron in his new builds, back in the 80's.
For the most part.

AFAIK...Dumble did use NEW Fender Twin iron (in the 80's) apparently from a source he had that was a dealer..There is also evidence on some iron that it was possibly taken from a donor Fender (due to the spliced leads)..Nobody but HAD can tell us for sure how many were new ones at the time of construction...The Music man Iron he used was taken from them when MM went out of business and was new or if you want to call it NOS,depending on when it went in..Either way obviously the 80's amps are seasoned now..
Personally I wouldn't consider seasoned iron a part of why the amps sounded good..I think that is a personal taste thing myself and have built,played and heard many ODS replicas that sounded pretty KILLER with new (or couple years old) iron!!

Tony

I stand corrected, for the most part.

but, wasn't Robben Fords greenlight amp built in the 80's and the date code on the OT is from around '72?
I've just been under the impression from reading past discussions that HAD was known to use seasoned iron. Maybe I didn't read that.

(maybe alzhiemers starting to set in at 57.) It sucks getting old, doesn't it?

Chip
Sure, there were some amps that could of had seasoned iron..I just wanted to clarify that some of the early Fender/Schumachers were not all used Iron at the time of the build and that some were installed new..That's all...BTW I was the one that posted the iron numbers and pot numbers for the 102 Ford amp..Your memory is still in good shape..

All The Best

Tony

[jcsifu]

Ohh I don't know well enough to answer that question. That would require setting up a proper experiment, AB-ing New Fender transformers, Old ones and new ones of different brands (on the flick of a switch, that's a costly business). And then the results should be analyzed and interpreted in a scientific way.. Perhaps major amp builders have the expertise for that. But then there is also taste. Otherwise it's just going with the philosophy of building an authentic clone as much as possible, or just sourcing your own parts. Reading experiences from other forum members.

Well......that doesn't sound like fun does it?

But my point was that all the different things that Dumble did resulted in that particular amp. But I believe you can also build a great sounding amp with other Iron, maybe even better sounding according to taste.

Point taken and agreed with bro.

[talbany]

If you do some searching here,you will find all kinds of different opinions on how seasoned iron affects the tone over time..Having run an amp company and having older amps come in for servicing and playing them against the newer ones aroused my curiosity..As a DIY er you don't have to do this IMO

That would require setting up a proper experiment, AB-ing New Fender transformers, Old ones and new ones of different brands (on the flick of a switch, that's a costly business). And then the results should be analyzed and interpreted in a scientific way..

If seasoned iron is something you want to try just pick up a set and build one,and if you have built several D-style and other type amps and have a pretty good ear you should be able to hear it..I did!

For me the effects of an output transformer are similar to that of a speaker break in, a bit smoother if you will and as time goes on can become more compressed,rounded and tends to take on a kind of it's own musical and harmonic personality, which you MIGHT like or not like ... This tends to be a bit more exaggerated in an amp like the ODS with an overdrive station built in! ..Kind of hard to explain...Seasoned power transformers over time seems to increase effects of regulation which causes a kind of natural compression..I am sure the harmonic structure of the amp might change as well but IMO these would be very subtle and virtually undetectable,(depending on the transformer)but you will feel it!!...
Over time an amp will seem to just feel and sound more like a musical instrument, with it's own unique voice than just another amplifier of the same type,and if you stick with it long enough your playing can change with the instrument, and eventually becomes a part of you...You won't even think about it while your playing..Like a guitar does!!!

Tony

[Pacosipulami]

6. Another trick is 4 ohm OT secondary setting into an 8 ohm speaker.

I do this the other way around with great results aka a 4ohm load on the 8ohm secondary setting of the OT- it tames the saturation effects of the higher driven output section and create a bit more clarity and definition. This is just me or my taste...doing this since many years!

anyway: the biggest improvement on guitar sound is still the player

[tubey]

I made a 183 clone. I just took the best parts that I could get. It was quite a risk, I did not know what the end result would be.
The amp is the best thing I ever heard, and the best that my friends heard. I'm very proud and happy that I did what I did.

It was the first amp that I ever built. I'm planning to built a second one. Not something cheap to do. But the first one is so good, it would be crazy not to built a second.

So my advice as a newbie: do your homework, read all the relevant stuff on this forum. Buy the best parts you can, it will make the end result better.

I noticed that my amp reponds extremely different with different tubes.

[CHIP]

Tubey,
What tube combinations do you like best, Power and Pre?
I'm using GE short plates in V1,2 telefunkin rib plate in PI, and svetlana EL 34's

[vibratoking]

On the subject of seasoned iron. What is seasoned iron anyway? Made before 1960, 1970, or some other year? If made before the 'magic' year then did it actually have to be used for some 'magic' number of hours or is it good enough that it sat in the corner unused for most of it's lifetime? IMO it is much more sensible to concentrate on something you can explain, understand, and control. Seasoned iron is just more deity nonsense IMO. Good iron is good and bad iron isn't, regardless of the year in which it was assembled. A few months ago I found some great old iron from a 1964 Twin. The year is right, but I don't want to use it because it isn't covered in the proper vintage mouse turds that create the tone that I am looking for. The turds are clearly from the down years for turds...the 80s. Does anybody want it?

[talbany]

"vibratoking"]On the subject of seasoned iron. What is seasoned iron anyway?

It's not that hard to understand.. Seasoned Iron is simply thought of as used iron...There is no special year of manufacturer or type (Like a 59 Les Paul Standard or 74 Twin iron are the magic ones) There is no real set time in the aging process that says it has to be a certain length of time for it to be considered "seasoned" as it's an ever evolving process, just as real as the pickups and wood on our guitars..You are right as the affects of time on all musical instruments are not easily documented and proven so we need to look for evidence... We can say with some certainty that the affects of aging on musical instruments does not seem to have an adverse affect on their tonal qualities over time,and one could very easily make the argument that in fact the affects of aging could actually enhance it's sound to some people..Vintage instruments seem to claim such high price tags and some if not most virtuoso players seem to prefer the sound and feel of these older instruments..Why should guitar amps be any different would be my question?

I do think many get caught up in the whole vintage is better thing for other reasons than how that piece actually performs. This just fuels the vintage is better fire IMO..Truth is, musical instruments have the ability to change the way they sound over decades in time..Question is can we hear and feel those changes and do we like them..Some might and some might not!

Does anybody want it?

Sure I'll take it!
Tony